Mini Cooper vaihtoautot Haluatko yrityksesi Nettiautoin palveluihin Nettiautoin palveluissa saat yrityksesi tarjomille palveluilla nkyvyytt. Kyttjt voivat hakea palveluja tarkoilla hakukriteereill, jolloin ilmoituksesi saa kohdennettua nkyvyytt. Palveluissa saat kuvauksen palveluistasi, yrityksesi logon, yhteystiedot ja linkin omille kotisivuille. Nettiauton palvelut auf maksullinen hakemisto, ota yhteys myyntiimme tarkemmista hintatiedoista. Laskutus tapahtuu etukteen L meit usko, usko asiakkaitamme. Automaalit auf Suomen suurin automaalien ja - tarvikkeiden verkkokauppa. Olemme olleet lsn NettiX: n markkinapaikoissa niin jatkuvalla nkyvyydell kuin kampanjaratkaisuilla. Tulosten ja mys palvelun perusteella voimme suositella NettiX: n markkinapaikkoja Saat mitattavaa vastinetta rahallesi. - Osmo Korkiakoski, toimitusjohtaja Jt yhteydenottopyynt Kerro meille yhteystietosi niin olemme yhteydess. our Werte unserer Leute Führender b2b Verleger, spezialisiert auf Online, interaktive professionelle Gemeinschaften Mit einer Reihe von Dienstleistungen, einschließlich Websites, E-Mail-Publikationen, Industrie Auszeichnungen und Veranstaltungen, Sift Media liefert Original-, Markeninhalte auf über eine halbe Million Profis in Buchhaltung, IT, HR und Training, Marketing und Small Business. Durch die Herstellung von qualitativ hochwertigen Inhalten und das Engagement unserer professionellen Zielgruppen über mehrere Touch-Punkte bieten wir b2b Marken einzigartige Marketing-Möglichkeiten, die echte Return on Investment zu liefern. Unsere Werte Wir glauben an die Erstellung von Inhalten, die Konversation und die Umwandlung von Geschäftsmöglichkeiten, sowohl für unsere Zielgruppe als auch für unsere Werbekunden. Durch die Fokussierung auf Inhalte und die Förderung der Community Engagement wollen wir vertrauenswürdige und einzigartige Umgebungen für Geschäftsmarken und Business-Profis zu optimieren Beziehungen zu schaffen. Unsere Leute Unsere Leute sind unser größtes Kapital und wir hatten Glück, einige der besten digitalen Talente im Land zu gewinnen. Mit einem Hands-on-Senior-Management-Team, erfahrenen Kampagnen - und Account-Managern, preisgekrönten Redakteuren und einem führenden Produktions - und Technologieteam haben wir eine Struktur und Qualität, die uns von anderen Verlagen abhebt. Erfahren Sie mehr und treffen Sie das Team unten. Tom Dunkerley Steven Priscott Finanzdirektor, Sift Unsere Geschichte Gegründet von Andrew Grey, David Gilroy und dem derzeitigen CEO Ben Heald, Sift war es, branchenspezifische Informationsdienste anzubieten, die das Internet nutzen, indem sie traditionelle Nachrichten und Webinhalte integrierten. Mit Bens Hintergrund in der Buchhaltung war es entschieden, dass dies der erste Markt für die Exploration und so im Jahr 1997 AccountingWEB. co. uk geboren wurde. Die Formel funktionierte, und in 12 Monaten war die Zirkulationsliste von 10 auf 4.000 gegangen, wobei die Einnahmen aus Anzeigen in wöchentlichen E-Mail-Bulletins generiert wurden. Sift Media erreicht mittlerweile über 700.000 registrierte Business-Profis und liefert über 5 Millionen Seitenaufrufe über das Portfolio von 11 Titeln in Großbritannien und den USA. Nicht nur, dass wir weiterhin einige der treuesten und engagierten Online-Business-Communities entwickeln, bieten wir Ihnen führende Lösungen für Werbetreibende. Für eine ausführlichere Geschichte besuchen Sie unsere Firmensite. Wenn Sie sich einer der aufregendsten Verleger des Vereinigten Königreichs anschließen möchten und Sie glauben, dass Sie die Leidenschaft und die Fähigkeiten haben, um ein wertvoller Teil des Teams zu werden, warum schauen Sie sich unsere aktuellen Stellenangebote an. London Transport Wheel Trims In den 1950er Jahren wurde die ganze Londoner Flotte ( 7000 Busse) brachten volle Hinterrad-Nave-Platten, die ihre Seitenansicht aufgeräumt und für eine einfache Reinigung gemacht haben müssen. Plötzlich waren sie weg 8211 warum Und machen moderne Restauratoren sie aus, für einen letzten Schliff und 8211 während auf Rädern 8211 wie unterschiedlich (und schrecklich) sind AECs und Leylands laufen ohne ihre Nuts-Ringe auf den Vorderrädern Es machte sie aussehen wie Auftragnehmer Busse 061016 8211 17:07 Vielleicht weil sie Meilenmesser an den hinteren Naben haben und diese gelben Nussindikatoren auf der Vorderseite 8211 und hinten Mit den Decken war es schwerer zu sehen, ob das Rad abfällt. Elf und Sicherheit yer knowas. 061016 8211 17:03 Ich scheine mich daran zu erinnern, irgendwo zu lesen (wenn auch bitte korrigieren Sie mich, wenn ich nicht richtig bin), dass eine Hinterrad-Trimmscheibe einmal aus einem LT-Bus kam, während mit der Geschwindigkeit und verursacht jemand eine schwere Verletzung, was zu ihrer sofortigen Entfernung von der gesamten Flotte. 061016 8211 17:03 Victor, ich kann nicht für LT sprechen, aber ich vermute, es könnte alles ein Teil der selben nicht kümmern weniger Syndrom, die BET und BTH Unternehmen, wenn NZB kam zustande. Von 1967 bis 1975 arbeitete ich bei NGTs Percy Main Depot Tynemouth amp Wakefields wie die meisten Depots innerhalb der Gruppe setzten sie sich sehr hohe Standards, Fahrzeuge wurden sorgfältig gepflegt, und nach ihren wöchentlichen Kontrollen wurden sie gründlich von oben bis hinten gereinigt, das war in Zusätzlich zum nächtlichen Ausflug durch die Wäsche und die Übernachtung. Stolz in der Flotte war immer noch etwas zu ermutigen, und das spiegelte sich im Fahrzeug aus, kleinere Schäden wurden schnell repariert, und Radverkleidungen wurden immer nach Wartungsüberprüfungen ersetzt. Dann kam der neue Besen von NBC, wie viele andere Depots, Fahrzeuge wurden zwischen Flotten vertauscht, mit einigen gehen von einem Ende des Landes zum anderen, um etwas falsch Zitat Zar Wilde, die Buchhalter nannten den Preis von allem und den Wert von nichts Ecken wurden geschnitten, um zu versuchen, Geld zu sparen, d. h. Helle Ordnung und Abzeichen wurden überlackiert oder einfach nicht ausgetauscht, wenn Karosserie erforderlich war, Radverkleidungen begannen zu verschwinden, und alles in allem begann die Flotte ramshackle und vernachlässigt. NBC wurde ein Akronym für No Body Cares. Leider scheinen PTEs etwas besser zu sein, in Fairness, Go Ahead scheinen eine Anstrengung zu machen, und ihre Fahrzeuge sind besser präsentiert als die eines anderen Unternehmens schottischen Ursprungs, aber ich habe Angst, dass abgesehen von einer Handvoll kleinerer Unternehmen die Ruhmtage sind Lange gegangen 071016 8211 06:20 Ich mag das Akronym Ronnie hat geschrieben, NBC No Body Cares. Ein etwas anderes ein 8211 unbeschreiblich in 8216family8217 Umstände 8211 war in einer Fachzeitschrift, die meinen Schreibtisch vor einigen Jahren überquerte. Glücklicherweise hat die Hierarchie rechtzeitig realisiert und beschlossen, NBG nicht zu benutzen 071016 8211 07:49 Manchester war einer von mehreren Unternehmen, die für einen Zeitraum spezifiziert Hinterrad trimmt. Viel zum Ärger der Zentrale, entfernten sich bestimmte Depots so schnell wie möglich mit der regelmäßigen Entschuldigung des Dienstes8217. Andere Depots hielten sie bis Mitte der 1960er Jahre auf. Die wirklichen Gründe für die Beseitigung waren die Bremsenüberhitzung, die Zeit, sie zu entfernen und zu ersetzen, wenn die Räder gewechselt werden mussten, und vor allem die Notwendigkeit, die Radmuttern regelmäßig auf Dichtheit zu prüfen, die später zu einem obligatorischen regelmäßigen Scheck wurde und wie ich es verstehe War zu dieser Zeit, dass die Londoner Radverkleidungen in kurzer Zeit verschwunden waren. 071016 8211 17:03 Ich hatte die gleiche Geschichte wie John Stringer gehört. Sie schienen alle aus den Bussen fast über Nacht zu verschwinden. Also ein Edikt von oben wäre vernünftig. Das war natürlich schon lange vor den Tagen der Radnaben-Indikatoren oder Nabenmesser, so dass der Vorfall von 8217 eindeutig plausibel ist. Ich habe täglich auf Country Bus RTs von Godstone und East Grinstead gefahren und sie hatten alle die schlichten Scheiben, mit Ausnahme eines bestimmten Busses (; frag mich doch mal was ich). Dies hatte den erhöhten Kreis, Mitte zwischen der Mitte und dem Umfang, der in poliertem Aluminium ausgesucht wurde. Verglichen mit all den einfachen grünen, schaute das sehr schlau. Ich bezweifle, dass wenige Passagiere jemals den Unterschied bemerkt haben, aber ich dachte, dass sie in diesem Stil neu geliefert worden sein könnten, aber normalerweise wurden sie ohne Erleichterung neu gestrichen. Woher die Bewahrer sie jetzt finden, ist das ein Geheimnis. Es sei denn, einige Garagen haben eine Menge für den Einsatz als Mülleimerdeckel gelagert 081016 8211 05:49 Es scheint mir seltsam, dass nach über zwanzig Jahren und Millionen Meilen im Dienst eine Radverkleidung so kommen sollte, dass sie jemanden verletzt und eine Masse auslöst Entfernung. Die Blenden wurden durch eine u-förmige Klammer befestigt, die an jedem Ende an der Nabe verschraubt wurde. Ein Federclip in der Mitte der Klammer ging durch einen Schlitz in der Mitte der Ordnung und sicherte die Verkleidung unter Druck. Die Blenden waren ein enger Sitz um die Felge, so dass, wenn der Frühling fehlte die Scheibe würde zunächst an Ort und Stelle durch Zentrifugalkraft bleiben. Eine Geschwindigkeitsänderung oder eine unebene Straßenoberfläche würde schließlich die Trimmlinie verschieben, aber mit LT8217s Fahrzeugen, die auf niedrige Geschwindigkeiten gerichtet sind, und auch in den Ländergebieten langsamer Verkehr, ich frage mich nur, welche Geschwindigkeiten erreicht werden könnten, um die Trimmfliege zu haben Um Verletzungen zu verursachen. Wahrscheinlicher war dies ein Wartungs-Edikt, das von einem Management-Umdenken ausgestellt wurde. Während es eine lange Zeit war, bevor Radnuss-Indikatoren etc. Instanzen von losen Rädern auf großen Fahrzeugen waren nicht ungewöhnlich 8211 Ich sah drei Lastwagen verlieren Räder auf der M1 in einem zwei Monate Zeitraum in 1967 8211 und ein strengeres Inspektionsregime als zuvor wurde in Platz von vielen Betreibern von großen Fahrzeugen. 081016 8211 05:50 I8217ve hat gerade einen Blick durch Ken Blacker8217s Buch 8216RT8217 (Capital Transport, 1979) und er sagt, dass 8216 im November 1971 die Bestellung ging an Garagen, um die Discs zu entfernen. Und ihre Halteklammern von den Hinterrädern aller Fahrzeuge8230..die Gründe war Economy8230.Einige Garagen erfüllten sofort und behandelte ihre gesamte Flotte innerhalb einer Angelegenheit von Tagen andere waren mehr lethargisch. Die letzten beiden Garagen, Wood Green und Palmwrs Green, entfernten allmählich die Scheiben aus ihren RT8217s und RM8217s während des frühen Teils von 19728217. So scheint es, dass ich meine Drähte mit meinem vorherigen Vorschlag gekreuzt haben kann. 091016 8211 06:44 Ich gestehe, dass ich noch nicht über dieses Feature nachgedacht habe, aber ich kann mich nicht erinnern, dass ich einen Bus der RF-, RT - oder RM-Familie im Dienst ohne diese intelligente Hinterradverkleidungen bekomme. Soweit ich weiß, wurden sie niemals auf die späteren PEG-Designs in London gearbeitet. Ein kurzer Blick durch meine eigenen Dias und Negative zeigt kein RFRTRM-Familienbeispiel ohne die Blenden, aber im Internet habe ich ein Bild von einem RT entdeckt, der diese Beschläge fehlt, während er noch im LT-Service ist. Das postulierte 1971-Datum des Dekrets, das die Beseitigung der Zierleisten vorsieht, passt zu der Tatsache, dass der Londoner Transport ab 1. Januar 1970 unter neuer Leitung stand, als die Bus - und U-Bahn-Operationen auf den Groß-Londoner Rat übertragen wurden. Im 10. Juni 1969 House of Lords Debatte über die vorgeschlagene Transport London Bill, wurde es abweisend festgestellt, dass London Transport Management sehr schwach ist, dies von einem Tory-Politiker, dessen Karriere war vor allem in der Landwirtschaft. So kam die BroadwayChiswick-Dynastie, die seit den Tagen des Generals effektiv regierte, zu einem abrupten Ende. Alle neuen Besen sind gern gesehen, um sauber zu werden, auch wenn einige der so verworfenen Gegenstände von Vorteil sind. Zweifellos wurden Radverkleidungen als überflüssige Irrelevanz gesehen. Die Landbus - und Busabteilung, die an die National Bus Company übergeben wurde, hatte keine Verpflichtung, dem gleichen Weg zu folgen. Alle meine Bilder von der Ex LT LCBS Flotte zeigen die Zierleisten an Ort und ich arbeitete im Reigate HQ während dieser Zeit. In der Tat, dies war die Zeit, als die Stokes (mis) führte britischen Leyland nicht in der Lage, neue Fahrzeuge und Ersatzteile an die Busindustrie bundesweit liefern. Ersatzteile für die Ex-LT-Designs wurden besonders knapp, und solche Artikel, die verfügbar wurden, wurden sofort von der GLC kontrollierten London Transport aufgeschnappt. LCBS erlitt in Folge stark. NBC entwarf solche Fahrzeuge, wie es in LCBS auftauchen könnte, und Busse wurden von Southend und Maidstone angeheuert, um die Lücken zu stecken. Entschlossen, die Größe des Problems zu reduzieren, verkaufte LCBS so viele RTRMCRMLRCL Busse wie möglich an den GLC kontrollierten London Transport Executive. Ich bin mir ziemlich sicher, dass die restliche LCBS-Flotte von ex LT-Typen ihre Radklappen bis zum Ende behalten hat. Es gibt einen kleinen Punkt in Phils umfassenden Kommentar, den ich in Frage stellen würde. Die Motoren in London Transportbusse wurden entnommen, nicht regiert. Trotzdem ist der Landbus und Bus Flotte wurden mit höheren Getriebe Differentiale, wenn 40 mph wurde die gesetzliche Grenze ausgestattet. Ich kann ihm versichern, dass ein Land RT auf einem ländlichen Abschnitt wie das von Chelsham Garage nach Westerham auf der 403 (später 483) sicherlich nicht hängen, wenn Umstände so gefordert, und es gab viele andere ähnliche Route Beispiele. 091016 8211 08:35 Vielen Dank Roger für die Abholung auf den Punkt über die Motoren regiert werden. Irgendwo in den Vertiefungen meines alternden Gehirns scheine ich mich daran zu erinnern, dass LT8217s Fahrzeuge Gouverneure hatten, aber es kann auch sein, wer das schrieb, das den Begriff falsch anstelle des Deratings verwendet hat. Im Hinblick auf die Beseitigung der Zierleisten habe ich regelmäßig London bis Anfang 1970 für die Arbeit besucht und habe nie eine RT, RF, RLH im Dienst ohne die Blenden gesehen. Mein nächster Besuch war spät im Jahre 1971 und ich wurde von der Anzahl der Fahrzeuge, die sich anzünden, überrascht. 091016 8211 09:39 Absolut, Roger: Hillman Imps mit diesen wunderschönen, aber anspruchsvollen Aluminium-Motoren hatte spezielle Anti-Freeze. Sie brauchten keine Servolenkung - man konnte sich leicht von der Sperre drehen, um sich zu verriegeln 091016 8211 10:58 Ich bekenne, dass I8217ve niemals Radverkleidungen irgendwelcher Art mochte, vor allem jene schrecklichen Wackeln, die in den 1960er Jahren leichte (und sogar schändlich) schwergewichtige Wackeln waren Trainer Abgesehen von den gründlich praktischen Punkten Nusszugang, Bremsenkühlung und so weiter schon erwähnt, sehe ich gern die Naben, die oft das Chassis zeigen. Auch wenn eingekaufte Achsen wie Kirkstall auf mehr als einem Bus gefunden werden, haben sie eine ehrliche Würde, die keine Verschleierung braucht. 091016 8211 15:11 Dein Beitrag auf LCBS v GLC-kontrolliert Zentral ist sehr interessant und erleuchtend, Roger thx. Was den NBC-Einfluss betrifft, so erstreckte sich dies auch auf Northern General8217s RMF8217s, deren Hinter - und Vorderradverkleidungen mit dem Aufkommen von NBC verschwunden waren. 111016 8211 06:32 Zur Verteidigung von NBC kann ich mich an sehr wenige Anweisungen der oben genannten Art erinnern. Die meisten Entscheidungen wurden vor Ort gemacht, vermutlich unter dem Stress, jemals die Einkommen zu reduzieren und die Notwendigkeit, die Volkswirtschaften bei der Aufrechterhaltung zunehmend komplizierterer Maschinen in immer schwierigeren Betriebsbedingungen zu bewahren. Dies könnte auf Firmen-, Flächen - oder Garagenebene liegen. Die Anpassung der Radverkleidungen an die Bristolbusse war Eine Anweisung von Tilling Group (ich glaube, es war vor NBC) zu BCV, aber es war eher die Laune des lokalen Chefingenieurs oder sogar Garagen-Ingenieure, ob sie beibehalten werden. Ich mochte den Blick von ihnen, aber hätte niemals den Prozess der Entfernung und des Ersatzes für jede Radnuss-Kontrolle auf hart gedrückten Wartungspersonal zugefügt. Die einzige NBC diktiert, dass ich mich erinnern kann: NBC-Firmen-Livree (Einige Unternehmen deckten die Creme mit Weiß in einem Rutsch ab, andere hielten die beiden separaten Livree intakt bis voll repaint 8211 Wie lange hat Ambleside Depot den letzten Trainer in Ribble Livree zu halten Weg von Nationalweiß) Auf dem Leyland National wurde das kreisförmige Leyland-Zeichen de-spezifiziert (warum sollte NBC Leyland 8211 annoncieren. Gleiches Argumentieren wie ältere Fahrzeuge, die den Herstellern Namen durch Firmenteller ersetzt haben, die meisten Flotten entfernten sie bei der nächsten geeigneten Gelegenheit, vielleicht Als ich es war, als ich um 11 Jahre alt war, ging ich nach Blackpool und sah offensichtlich, dass Leylands eine Ribble-Heizkörperplatte spielte. Als ich dann nach Bristol ging, nahm ich an, dass alle Bristolen auch Leylands waren. Die weiße Taillenband war de - spezifisch, weil Leyland zu viel aufgeladen wurde, um es dem einfarbigen Spray-lackierten Fahrzeug hinzuzufügen. Einige Flotten löschten es auf den Rest der Flotte (vor allem diejenigen, die Spritzlackierung waren), hatte ich es allen Nationals bei UCOC hinzugefügt (Weil wir noch Handmalerei waren), bevor sie auf die Straße traten und wie viel schöner sie sahen 111016 8211 15:39 Wie ich in meinem Eröffnungs-Salvo Geoff sagte, wussten NBC-Buchhalter den Preis von allem und den Wert von nichts. Ihre Kommentare bestätigen das. 121016 8211 06:33 Ich denke, dass Geoff8217s Grundnachricht war, dass in den frühen Tagen des NBC eine große Diskretion den einzelnen Firmen erlaubt war. Als die politische Mentalität und die tote Hand der Freddie-Holz-Ära eintreffen, wurde absolut, langweilig, erstickende Konformität zum Tag des Tages (nach Tag, nach Tag). Greater Manchester Buses Ich habe vor kurzem einige Bilder von alten Greater Manchester Busse von 1986 bis 1988 gesehen und ich stieß auf ein paar Bilder, die Busse mit dem Präfix FK vor der Busnummer zeigte. Diese waren in der Regel das Depot der Bus gehörte, dh OM Oldham, PS Princess Road. Kann jemand bitte etwas Licht auf die FK Präfix und wo es war etc etc. Hier ist ein Link zu einem der Bild madannie. smugmugBuses 270916 8211 08:56 FK war der Code für Frederick Road. Dies war früher das Hauptquartier von Salford City Transport. 270916 8211 08:57 FK war das Depot-Code für Frederick Rd, Salford, das ehemalige HQ und arbeitet für Salford City Transport. Kennt jemand einen Bus oder Trainer namens Jack Harrison, VC, MC in Hull. Jack wurde 1917 mit einem posthumigen Victoria Cross ausgezeichnet und ich glaube, ein Bus oder Trainer wurde nach ihm benannt. Danke für alle Leads, die du geben kannst. 210916 8211 05:53 Es war ein Kingston-upon-Hull-Trainer, Nummer 40 (B40UAG), der als "John Harrison VCquot" bezeichnet wurde. Es war ein Dennis Dorchester mit Plaxton Paramount 3200 (C50Ft) Körper. Es war neu im Juli oder August 1984 mit Kingstonian Flottennamen. Ich fotografierte es auf 18091984 auf dem Internationalen Gartenfest in Liverpool, aber es hatte keinen sichtbaren Namen. Ein Ian Allan Flottenbuch korrekt bis Januar 1985 gibt es als seinen Namen zu tragen. Wenn Sie Google quotB40UAGquot, das erste Ergebnis sollte Ihnen ein Foto von der verstorbenen Roy Marshall in Hull im Jahr 1986 genommen und zeigt den Namen zwischen den Scheibenwischer getragen werden. Wie weit unten Holderness Road in Hull tat die Trolleybusse laufen ist, dass eine verbleibende grüne Gantry Pole gegenüber Kingston Vets auf der gleichen Seite wie die Apollo Kneipe in der Nähe des Kreisverkehrs 030916 8211 16:15 Hallo Brenda. Nach meinem besten Wissen erstreckten sich die Trolleybusse nicht über die Ings Road auf der Holderness Road Route hinaus, nachdem sie die Straßenbahnen auf dieser Strecke 1940 direkt ersetzt hatten. Die grüne Traktionsmast, die Sie im Kreisverkehr von Diadem Grove verweisen, sieht in der Tat wie ein ehemaliger Trolleybus aus . Ich vermute, dass dies einer von vielen war, die an verschiedenen Orten für Straßenbeleuchtungszwecke nach dem Abzug von Trolleybusse in Hull im Jahr 1964 neu gepflanzt werden. Es bittet die Frage, warum es immer noch da ist, anscheinend keinen Zweck. 050916 8211 06:50 Die Holderness Road Trolleybusse endete kurz vor Ings Road. Hull8217s Traktion Pole waren von sechs verschiedenen Arten, so wäre es nützlich, ein Foto zu haben, um zu versuchen, die Pole zu identifizieren. Viele Pole wurden für Beleuchtungszwecke beibehalten, aber sie wurden in die City Engineer8217s Abteilung übertragen, so dass es möglich ist, dass einige wiederverwendet wurden. Malcolm J Wells 050916 8211 14:52 Malcolm, hier ist ein Link zur Straßenansicht, die den betreffenden Pole zeigt. Ihre Identifikation, welche Art es ist, wäre interessant. Klicken Sie hier, um zu sehen 060916 8211 05:48 Das sieht nicht wie ein Traktionsstock für mich aus, sondern stattdessen ein Abwasserkanal, das geriffelte Oberteil ist ein Indikator für seine Funktion, anstatt ein Finial zu haben, wie es bei Traktionsstangen normal war. Ich muss sagen, dass ich irgendwann eine Abwasserkanalisation irgendwann bemerkt habe. 060916 8211 05:49 Das Foto sieht eher wie ein Abwasserkanal aus als ein Zugpole. 060916 8211 08:35 Vielen Dank, David und Phil, um es als Abwasser zu entdecken. Ich wusste nie, dass solche Dinge auf einer öffentlichen Straße existierten. Es ist sicherlich aus der Trolleybus-Ära ausgegangen, also hat Brenda die Frage gestellt. Mystery gelöst und etwas Neues gelernt 090916 8211 16:22 Habe gerade das Foto gesehen und ich bin mir sicher, dass es keine Traktionsmast ist. Malcolm J Wells 090916 8211 16:54 Der andere Punkt, der dagegen arbeitet, ist ein Trolleybus-Traktionsstab, dass das Lüftungsrohr senkrecht, gerade und wahr ist. Trolleybus-Pole waren, war ich immer zu glauben, mit einer nach außen gerichteten, sobald die oben liegenden Drähte installiert und gespannt wurden, die Pole würde eine aufrechte 8216true8217 vertikal annehmen. Dies wurde sicherlich von den Pole getragen, die auf der Sutton Road in Maidstone blieben, die nach dem Ende der Trolleybusse als Lampenstandards gehalten wurden. Ohne die Drähte, sie alle entspannten sich zu einer ausgesprochen abgestimmten Haltung. Wieder wurde mir von einem alten Timer erzählt, dass dieses vorgespannte Design für Trolleybus-Standards sehr deutlich ausgeprägt war als Straßenbahnen, wegen des zusätzlichen Gewichts der Kupferverdrahtung. Plaxton Body Style auf Bedford J2 Chassis Die ersten Körper, die von Plaxton auf dem Bedford J2 Chassis von 1961 gebaut wurden, waren die 8216Consort8217 Stil 7ft 6in breit mit der Wrap um 2 Stück Windschutzscheibe und 3 Stück hinten. Im Jahr 1965 änderte sich dies in den breiteren 8216Embassy8217 Stil 8ft breit mit einem Stück Bildschirme gleichen Frontverstärker hinten. Aber es gab 2 Trainer, die 1969 im älteren Stil für Bradford Ambulance Service gebaut wurden. Diese sind LAK 118G und 119G. Meine Frage ist, warum hat Plaxton wieder auf den früheren Stil für diese beiden Trainer Ich füge Fotos von LAK 118G und auch ABC 330K der späteren Stil zum Vergleich 020916 8211 16:20 John, ich kann mir vorstellen, dass eine Firma wie Plaxton hätte zwei gebaut haben Der älteren Stile Körper für die schiere Spaß, dies zu tun. Meine Vermutung wäre, dass der Klient das Muster angegeben hat. Vielleicht, für Bradford8217s Ambulance Service, wollten sie Fahrzeuge mit dem gleichen 8216footprint8217 wie ein Krankenwagen. 030916 8211 16:12 Pete, ich bin sicher, Sie sind richtig, vermutlich brauchte Bradford Ambulance Service die schmalere 7ft 6in, um sie zugänglicher zu schmalen städtischen Straßen zu machen. Die J28217s wären vermutlich als Wohlfahrtsbusse benutzt worden, um den älteren Ampel zu den ambulanten Terminen an den örtlichen Krankenhäusern amp Kliniken zu transportieren. Bradford Ambulance hatte auch zwei weitere in der Charge LAK 120121G, also vier insgesamt, was ich vermutlich es lohnt, das frühere Design wieder aufleben zu lassen. Nur LAK 118G amp LAK 119G überleben, 118 als Cateringfahrzeug und 119 als Wohnmobil. Burlingham Sun Saloon Ich bin ein Buscoach Anorak und frage mich, ob irgendwelche voller Fronten Burlingham Sun Saloon Trainer noch existieren. Mein Grund ist, dass ich Oxford Diecast gefragt habe, ob sie ein Modell in 1:76 produzieren könnten, wie sie es bereits in ihren kleineren Maßstabsmodellen tun, aber es wurde gesagt, dass keiner im Quantenleben existiert. Danke für deine Hilfe. 220816 8211 14:03 Warum sollte kein 1: 1 Beispiele sein Nach Wiki ist es nur 4 bis 5 Jahre, da sie die 1: 148 gemacht haben, sicherlich haben sie immer noch die Zeichnungen und andere Referenzmaterialien, die sie damals benutzten. 220816 8211 14:06 Nach der Eingabe meines letzten Kommentars habe ich bemerkt, dass Paragon Kits einen 1:76 Sun Saloon Körper werben. Paragonkits 220816 8211 14:07 Peter Bourne und ich scheinen immer unterschiedliche Nachrichten über Oxford Diecast Produkte zu bekommen. Sie erzählten mir vor ein paar Jahren, dass sie sehr sorgfältig bei der Planung eines neuen Modells, einschließlich umfangreicher Ansichten eines Fahrzeugs in der vorgeschlagenen Livree forschen. Ich hatte ein Modell von MTD 235 entweder in Pennine oder Leyland Demonstrator Livree vorgeschlagen. Wie können sie Petrus dann sagen, dass sie im Jahre 176 ein Modell produzieren können, wenn sie es im Jahre 1148 für die britische N-Skala produzieren. Vielleicht sollten sie ein Wort mit den Leuten von Bachmann haben, die sich in einer Skala modellieren und auf die andere vergrößern oder schrumpfen, Peter, I8217m nicht bewusst von irgendwelchen dieser Art von Körper noch 8216alive8217 in realer Begriffe. 220816 8211 17:04 Vor ein paar Jahren hat jemand in Bus amp Coach Preservation8217s Kleinanzeigen einen Guy Arab III zum Verkauf angeboten, der mit einem Sunsaloon Körper aus einem anderen Fahrzeug ausgestattet war (Spender nicht in der Anzeige angegeben). Ich kann die Anzeige nicht finden, ohne durch 100s von Back-Kopien zu gehen, so dass mehr Details eine Weile im Kommen sein können. Ich scheine mich zu erinnern, dass das Fahrzeug auf dem Festland Europa war, als es beworben wurde, und dass der Preis war gut über dem Chancen. 230816 8211 06:45 Warum sollte kein 1: 1 Beispiele sein Nach Wiki sind es nur 4 bis 5 Jahre, seit sie das 1: 148 gemacht haben, sicherlich haben sie immer noch die Zeichnungen und andere Referenzmaterialien, die sie damals benutzten. 230816 8211 06:45 Vielleicht ist I8217m dick. Ich dachte, ich reite auf einem Burlingham Sun Saloon letzte Woche 8211 Steve Morris8217s ex Bournemouth PS2. (Einer von drei, die ich dachte, waren alle in Erhaltung.) 030916 8211 16:13 I8217ve gerade gesehen David Oldfield8217s Kommentar vom 23. August. Der Sonnenschein nach 1: 148, der in 1:76 gewünscht wird, wird als Paragon-Kit in diesem Link von John Lomas gezeigt. Dass und die 8216Bournemouth8217 sind nicht die gleichen 030916 8211 16:14 Für David Oldfield8217s profitieren die Burlingham körperlichen PS2s von Bornemouth haben einen exponierten Kühler und sind im Wesentlichen eine Version des Halb-Baldachin-Trainer mit einer breiten Kabine. Der Sunsaloon war ein Stil mit verdecktem Kühler und niedrig montierten stilisierten Scheinwerfer-Blenden, die vor allem Walter Alexander amp Sons auf Leyland PS1 geliefert wurden. Hier ist ein Bild von einem: flickrphotos 160160 Vergleichen und kontrastieren mit dem Bournemouth Design. I8217m schreiben in der Hoffnung, dass Sie mit einer Abfrage in Bezug auf Luxus-Trainer aus den 19308217s, insbesondere die Gilford helfen können. Haben diese Trainer ursprünglich Art-Deco-Innenspiegel für den Einsatz von Passagieren gedacht Wenn Sie irgendwelche Informationen oder Bilder über diese Spiegel und die Innenräume im Allgemeinen haben, dass Sie in der Lage sind, I8217d zu teilen, ist sehr dankbar. 020416 8211 06:23 Gilford und alle anderen Bauherren des Trainer-Chassis stellten einen selbsttragenden, fahrbaren Rahmen zur Verfügung, der am häufigsten mit einem Trainer-Body durch ein eigenes Unternehmen ausgestattet wurde. Die Innenarchitektur in den 1930er Jahren war im Ermessen des Kunden, der den Körper spezifiziert. Innenspiegel waren oft angebracht und diese waren das Produkt der Lieferanten zu den Coachbuildern, diese gleichen Firmen würden ähnliche Einzelteile für zeitgenössische Luxuxkarosserien zur Verfügung stellen. Kann mir jemand sagen, wo es ist oder geben Sie mir eine kurze Geschichte von Banarbys Coachbuilders. 130816 8211 09:53 quotDas ABC von British Bus Bodiesquot von James Taylor erklärt, dass es im Jahre 1870 als Blacksmithwheelright gegründet wurde. Es wurde B Barnaby Amps Söhne im Jahr 1926 und ab 1937 Barnaby8217s Bus Bodies (Hull) Ltd, mit Räumlichkeiten in Neptun und Ropery Street. Die Firma wurde 1960 verkauft und schließlich 1974 abgewickelt, zuletzt wurde das Hören erhoben. Die meisten Kunden stammten aus Yorkshire, frühe Bus-Karosserien enthalten charabancs und in den 19308217s war es Gebäude Single-Deck Körper auf Chassis wie Leyland Cheetahs und Tigers. In den späten 19408217s, baute es Körper auf Dennis LancetsTigers und Bedford OB8217s. Es hat auch ein Chassis entkräftet. Es baute auch ein paar Doppel-Deck-Körper. 130816 8211 10:34 Barnabys bauten Körper für Everingham Brüder von Pocklington, von denen einige an East Yorkshire Motor Services übergeben wurden. Die Carnegie Center in Hull hat ein paar Fotoalben von Barnaby8217s Produkte, aber ich don8217t wissen, ob sie irgendwelche anderen Informationen haben. Malcolm J Wells 140816 8211 06:09 Barnaby war ein faszinierender Bodybuilder 8211 in späteren Jahren konservativ im Stil, und in den frühen Tagen bis in die 1930er Jahre waren ihre Produkte unverschämt altmodisch im Aussehen und herrlich für sie. Zu jeder Zeit aber war die Konstruktion gesund und mit guten Materialien. Bei Ledgard8217s hatten wir zwei Liedlöwen und einen Gepard, alle erworben mit dem Geschäft von Günter von Leeds, als er traurig im Jahre 1943 starb. 140816 8211 11:01 Faszinierend, Chris Y. Hast du Fotos von einem der drei 140816 8211 16 : 41 150816 8211 06:04 Booth Amp Fisher, Halfway, hatte drei Bedford OBs von Barnaby im Jahr 1948 geboren. Sie wurden registriert LRB 749501 und ich nehme an, das war das gleiche Barnaby. 150816 8211 06:04 Du hast mich stolz gemacht, Roger, das eine große Anzahl von Fotos finde. Wie traurig der erste Bus, der TD3, sieht in seinen letzten Tagen als Vertragspartner aus, mit dem Obergeschoss Vorderseite Fenster mit Aussteigen ausgeblendet Wenn David Aston zurück kommt, um seinen Posten zu besuchen, sollte er sich darüber freuen, was wir mit uns kommen Drei Jahre nach seiner Anfrage 150816 8211 06:05 Barnaby baute auch viele van und Krankenwagen Handelskörper. Die 8216Needlers8217 einst berühmte Schokolade süße Gesellschaft von Hull ist eins. 150816 8211 06:06 Interessanter Kommentar Re Qualität, weil mein Verständnis ihrer frühen 1950er Jahre Qualität war so schlecht, dass York Pullman für einen Ersatz für ein 3 Jahre alt oder so Fahrzeug-daher die späte Körperung von JVY 516 150816 8211 08:49 York Pullman8217s JVY gefragt 516 war ihr letzter Barnaby-Trainer, aber soweit ich weiß, war der noch vorhandene Körper das Original. Wenn das Chassis 3 Jahre alt war, wenn es registriert ist, dann ist es eher auf York Pullman8217s konservative Einkaufspolitik (es sei denn, ich habe etwas verpasst). Die Barnaby-Körper auf FVY 41011 scheiterten sicherlich in den frühen 1960er Jahren, was dazu führte, dass sie neue Roe-Körper erhielten. Kann jeder von euch kenntnisreiche Chaps zu meiner Hilfe kommen Wie einige von euch von meinen Beiträgen auf dieser Seite bewusst sein werden, zwischen 1967 und 75 war ich ein Fahrer bei NGT8217s Percy Main Depot, Tynemouth und Wakefields, wie es damals war. Hauptsächlich, um meine eigene Neugier zu befriedigen, habe ich versucht, eine Geschichte von TampW zu kompilieren, damit sie Teil von NBC werden. Ich habe viele Informationen aus dem Archiv der Nord-Tyneside-Bibliothek bezogen, wie das Unternehmen mit Straßenbahnen begann und anschließend Teil der BET-Gruppe wurde. Der erste Bus war ein 1914 8216B8217 Typ Daimler und kam aus Northern im Jahr 1921, 8216J 25518217 nummeriert D1 später T1 in TampW Flotte, aber hier ist, wo ich habe einige grelle Lücken in was ich graben kann. I8217m auf der Suche nach allgemeinen Informationen über Fahrzeuge mit den folgenden Flottennummern 238 8211 4381 8211 879 8211 11117. Manche mögen wohl Versorgungsunternehmen gewesen sein, während andere Vorkriegsfahrzeuge in den späten 408217s rebodiert wurden, obwohl diejenigen, die ihre ursprünglichen Flottennummern behalten hatten. Einige Informationen, die ich über Fahrzeuge zwischen 118 Amp 156 habe, sind auch unvollständig, z. B. Einige hätten den Namen des Wakefields offensichtlich getragen, mehrere Chargen würden in diese Nummerngruppierungen kommen, und nicht alle mit dem gleichen Chassis oder Bodybuilder, aber ich würde jede Hilfe schätzen, die jeder mir geben kann. 120816 8211 11:02 Sie sollten versuchen, eine Kopie der PSV Circle Omnibus Gesellschaft Flotte Geschichte von Tynemouth 8211 zu bekommen, es umfasst auch Tyneside und Venture. Es ist etwa 40 Jahre alt, also jetzt eher veraltet, aber dennoch für alle, die sich für Tynemouth und Wakefields interessieren, ist es von unschätzbarem Wert. Als dein Beitrag ist drei Jahre alt, ich weiß nicht, ob du noch nach diesen Informationen bist, aber wenn du magst, kann ich zusammenfassen, was es zu sagen hat. Bus Bild von 1930s Northumberland I8217m auf der Suche nach einem Foto von der Art des Busses, die im Dienst zwischen Blyth, Northumberland und Newcastle upon Tyne in den 1930er Jahren gewesen wäre. Das Bild ist für den Einsatz in einem gemeinschaftlichen Kunstprojekt, um mit den Erinnerungen an eine Dame, jetzt im Alter von 98, die damals eine Busleitung war, zu gehen. Kann jemand mir helfen, ein solches Foto zu zwingen 120816 8211 06:07 Der offensichtlichste Betreiber auf dem Blyth to Newcastle Service war United Automobile Services Limited. United war einer der großen territorialen Betreiber, deren Bus-Service-Netzwerk von Berwick-upon-Tweed bis hinunter nach ScarboroughBridlington reiste, so dass die Verfügbarkeit einiger historischer Fotografien ihrer Busse möglich ist. United eröffnete eine Garage in Blyth um 1919 und baute ein Netzwerk von Dienstleistungen sowie den Erwerb kleinerer Unternehmen auf. United erwarb das Geschäft von Thomas Allen von Blyth im Jahre 1933, der auch eine Dienstleistung von Blyth nach Newcastle betrieb. Ich habe eine Zeitschrift, die ein Foto von einem circa 1929 Leyland TD1 Doppeldecker betrieben von United, die Newcastle und Newbiggin auf dem Zielbildschirm (Buses Extra 7 veröffentlicht 19771978). Wenn es Doppeldeckerbusse ist, erinnert sich die Dame dann, diese Art ist wohl ein Typ, den sie erkennen könnte. (Copyright-Beschränkungen verhindern, dass der Artikel auf dieser Website hochgeladen wird, aber ich bin bereit, eine Kopie an Michele zu schicken, wenn meine E-Mail an sie weitergegeben wird). Dieser Link führt zu einem Foto von einem ähnlichen Stil Bus von Wilts und Dorset betrieben, eine große Firma ähnlich wie United: busmanjohn. files. wordpress Dieser Link führt zu einem Foto von einem United Single Decker Bus neu im Jahr 1934 (United LH165 (HN 9765 ), Ein Bristol H mit Östlichen Grafschaften Karosserie): sct61.org. ukualh165 Inzwischen werde ich sehen, ob irgendetwas auftaucht, in welchen Büchern ich habe. Hastings First Tram Wer weiß, welche Firma die Hastings Tramways Company mit ihrer ersten Straßenbahn geliefert hat, im April 1906, bitte 100816 8211 10:41 John, nach dem ausgezeichneten LRTA-Handbuch "Die Tramways der Südküste", Hastings8217 erste Straßenbahnen (1-30 ) Wurden im Jahre 1905 von der ERampTCW (The Electric Railway Amp Tramway Carriage Works Ltd) gebaut. Die Straßenbahn eröffnete am 31. Juli 1905 und wurde am 15. Mai 1929 durch Trolleybusse ersetzt. Das System war interessant, weil wegen der Einwände gegen den Einsatz von Overhead wires along the Promenade, it used the Dolter surface contact power supply section from 1907. Because of safety and efficiency problems, in 1914 some trams were fitted with Tilling Stevens petrol-electric motors to cover this section until overhead wires were finally erected in 1920. 100816 8211 15:20 As an aside, I recall that Blackpool started with the conduit system (at least on the seafront) and suffered endless problems with sand and seawater clogging up and flooding 8216down below8217 until it was abandoned 110816 8211 14:08 Going even further 8216aside8217 than Chris Hebbron8217s comment, Wolverhampton used a stud contact system which had among its features a common failure for the stud (raised by magnetism via a 8216skate8217 under the tram) to return to the lower position. Thus, it remained live. The local horses found it quite shocking 120816 8211 06:02 Indeed, Pete, the surface contact system had problems wherever it was used. Indeed, it was reported that in one city (Lincoln) young boys were paid to quottestquot the studs I suspect that tales of near fatalities have become exaggerated over the years, but one major flaw was that trams would become stranded between two non-working studs and have to be pushed by passengers. Blackpool8217s conduit system referred to by Chris was obviously not suited to seaside operation, but of course numerous cities used it successfully for many years (eg. London and Washington). Today we have a development of the stud system being built and operated as we speak, namely the French quotground-level powerquot system which collects power from a central third-rail activated by two collector shoes under each tram. This system is by no means infallible and only time will tell if the French develop it further. 120816 8211 06:03 Another early adopter of the 8216Dolter8217 stud contact system was Mexborough amp Swinton. It wasn8217t just the horses that were energised by the faulty studs, the local miners with steel sets in their boots were also frequent bright sparks. Just to prove the adage what goes around comes around have you noticed the posh new trams at the Rio Olympics. they have the Aps system which stands for something like Alimentation par sol, fed through the soil () 120816 8211 14:14 Mention of London Transport8217s conduit pickup system reminds me of this colour photo I8217ve had for some years of plough ejectioninsertion taken by my uncle just before the trams were scrapped. It was taken between Tooting Broadway and Colliers Wood in South London. The trams never stopped either way, with the conductors raisinglowering the roof pole whilst walking along and the plough being manually inserted as seen here, being put into the inverted 8216U8217 between the trucks of this E1. The plough automatically slid out by following the slot coming into the centre and joining into a common slot, ready for a plough to go out again 8211 see bottom right for slot coming in. The change to overhead power here was necessitated by a railway bridge, whereby trains would have fouled any UG feed equipment under the road. I admired these guys, who worked in the open in all extremes of weather, yet were always smartly uniformed I never passed by on foot without watching this operation for 30 mins at least and sometimes rode in the trams, too. 130816 8211 07:03 Pedants Corner: the metal protectors you put on your pit booits were actually Segsquot, Andrew: I had to say that because its such a lovely word and conjures up images of cobblers shops reeking of leather and glue with cards of these segs for sale: Blakeys segs have a website I see 170816 8211 14:06 With regard to the Rio trams (I know that there is usually a fair bit of movement from the original topic on this site, but change of mode and country is unusual 8211 not that I have any objection). I only speak a few words of Portuguese (picked up on a wonderful Railway Holiday) but 8216Alimentation par sol8217 looks like 8216Solar powered8217. No doubt one of the readers has the necessary expertise to confirm or refute this. 180816 8211 06:42 Andy, the French system APS (Alimentation par le Sol) is translated as quotfeeding via the groundquot. It was first used in Bordeaux in 2003 but has since been used in Reims, Anger, Orlean, Tours and Dubai. There have been operating problems and many in the industry are sceptical of its long-term potential. However, for use within historic or visually-sensitive city centres it offers a useful option. 180816 8211 06:44 I also spent many a fascinating half hour or so watching the shoes entering or leaving the trams near the Common end of Streatham High Road on the old A 23. The Selnec Number 60 I8217m going back to 1971. I got a place at De la Salle teacher training college in Middleton. Because said college only had campus accommodation for years 2, and 3, first years lived 8216out8217. I was in Glen Avenue, Blackley. I used to get the number 60 to visit girlfriend students at Sedgley Park. (Now a police training college) What was the exact route of this service I used to get on at the 8216tram office8217 on Rochdale Road in the 8216dip8217 just further towards Middleton from Glen Ave. 090716 8211 06:39 I have an undated SELNEC bus map which would have been published sometime just after the time of the formation of the PTE (November 1969 so perhaps published during 1970). In the list on the map it refers to service 60 as 8216Cannon Street-Blackley Circular via Cheetham Hill or Rochdale Road8217. There were clockwise and anti-clockwise circular services that both carried the same service number 60. Following the map the anti-clockwise service ran via the following route: Cannon Street, High Street, Shudehill, Rochdale Road, (Blackley tram office), Rochdale Road, Victoria Avenue, Middleton Road, Cheetham Hill Road, Corporation Street, Cannon Street. The clockwise service appears to leave from Cannon Street travelling via High Street, Shudehill, Withy Grove and Corporation Street. The route after that is clearer travelling via Cheetham Hill Road, Middleton Road, Victoria Avenue, Rochdale Road, (Blackley tram office), Rochdale Road, Shudehill, Withy Grove, Corporation Street then Cannon Street. The 8216tram office8217 Mike refers to stood in the 8216v8217 of the junction of Middleton Old Road and Rochdale Road. The building can be made out on Google Streetview. There is an older photo of the building at: pinterest Coach Companies Ending with 8216tonian8217 I wonder if you could help, we are wondering why Coach Companies often have the ending 8216tonian8217 e. g. AltonianBedfordian 010716 8211 16:55 Brutonian in Somerset spring to mind8230 It is to show allegiance to a place, generally the operational centre Brutonian, means native to Bruton, just as Glaswegian means native to Glasgow. 010716 8211 16:57 That wonderful thing called wikipedia tells me that this word ending is a demonym. It is a term for residents of or associated with a particular place. There are several types, and include quotChinesequot for the people of China, quotEnglishquot for the people of England, etc. For the ending in question the site notes quotPrestonianquot for Preston, Lancs, and quotTorontonianquot for Toronto. I guess all those coach companies have taken their place name and added this suffix to indicate their place of origin. This just goes to show that coaches must have a personality, as the suffix is meant to apply to people 020716 8211 13:34 Barfordian Coaches once of Great Barford near Bedford but now with a Bedford address. barfordiancoaches. co. uk 160160 Truronian of Truro (according to Wikipedia: Truronian was formed in September 1987 by former Western National managers8230.in April 2008, Truroninan was purchased by FirstGroup8230.in March 2012, the trading name was sold to Newell8217s Travel). 020716 8211 18:52 Many of these only added the IAN as in the Alton-ian and Bedford-ian examples. This idea was also used by Duple in developing their Hendon-ian body. 020716 8211 18:54 Windsorian is another. You can8217t do it with all names, though: I find the following imaginary ones unconvincing: Biggleswadian. Newburian. Illston-on-the-Hillian. Yr Wyddgrugian8212the English version of which would sound distinctly mildewy. As quot-ianquot is from Latin, I suppose we shouldn8217t expect our earthy Saxon, Danish and Celtic place names to fit into the pattern. Salopia Saloon Coaches has no final quot-nquot and sounds quite happy, but only because the Romans couldn8217t pronounce words beginning with quotShr-quot. 040716 8211 15:56 Just remembered my Oxfordshire days. and Heyfordian 8211 still going I believe. 060716 8211 07:52 I think we can all understand why there are no Isle of Wight coach companies called Caulkhead-ian 060716 8211 09:48 There8217s one not far from Bedford 8211 Barfordian Coaches. I believe it was originally based in Great Barford, but is now in Bedford itself. 060716 8211 11:23 Kingston upon Hull City Transport8217s coaching section was named quotKingstonianquot. Bedford SB OKJ 210 Can anyone help me please with history of this coach a Bedford SB new to Watsons of Strood in 1-1952. with a Duple body C24F. a description describes it as a luxury coach. This coach was later in the fleet of Redby Coaches of Roker, Sunderland date unknown I would be grateful of any help in tracing any change of ownership after Watsons and again after Redby. Whilst with Redby it was regularly used by Sunderland football club, their ground being in Roker close by to Redby8217s garage. 200616 8211 09:30 There8217s a mention of OKJ 210 on the 8216Buses On Screen8217 website. Private Coach (1953, British Pathe News) OKJ210, Bedford SBDuple of Watson, Strood 8211 a luxury coach with hostess service, radio message service and toilet providing free travel to London, seen leaving Aylesbury. It8217s the idea of car dealer Raymond Way to bring potential customers to his car showroom in Kilburn (Thanks Martin Ingle) 060217 8211 07:20 After Watsons. 1952, this coach is known to have gone to Scott Greys of Darlington before going on to Redby Coaches of Sunderland. I ask can anyone be able to help with change of ownership dates also after Redby8217s would be of interest to me. The Scott Greys information just been forth coming to me 5217. Buses in Manchester Circa 1940 8211 1945 This seems to be the best place to aid my search. My grandfather, Daniel Francis Kelly, was a bus driver in early 19408217s in Manchester. All I know for certain is that he moved back to Ireland in 1945, so that would be when his service ended. I8217m trying to find out what kind of bus he would have driven. Presumably it would have been Manchester Corporation I8217ve had a quick search and some names have come up like a Streamliner and Daimler Utility. Ultimately I8217d like to find out what route he also drove, however I feel this will be highly unlikely 8211 still worth a shot. 170616 8211 14:44 During the late thirties, Manchester Corporation had a standard design of bus body which was built on Crossley, Leyland and Daimler chassis, the bodies being built by Metro-Cammell, Crossley, Leyland and English Electric, so your grandfather might have driven any of these, they were probably the most common buses in Manchester during the war. The Daimler Utilities were only a small part of the fleet and were not built until late in the war. It is also possible that he could have worked for North Western, which had a depot in Manchester. 180616 8211 06:16 When you say he drove buses in Manchester, he could of course have driven for any of the surrounding Municiple Undertakings, all of which worked in to Manchester. These being Ashton under Lyne, SHMD, Stockport, Oldham, Salford, Bolton, and Rochdale. North Western Road Car Company has already been mentioned, and there was also Lancashire United Transport, and of course Maynes, the only independent operator to run Stage services in Manchester. I know it slightly blurrs the boundaries for you, but Manchester Corporation Transport Department ran more route miles outside the City limits than it did in it. Good luck in your quest. 180616 8211 06:17 quotStreamlinerquot was the name of the standard design that Don described, and this link shows what it looked like: flic. krpqxRGjh 210616 8211 05:58 The Greater Manchester Transport Society archive at the Museum of Transport, Boyle St in Manchester, is the custodian of payroll records for MCTD, including those from the wartime years. It might be a laborious search (and, realistically, you8217d have to do it for yourself), but the records are there and we8217re a friendly bunch. A phone call to George Turnbull, the Museum8217s archivist, on 0161-205-2122 (Wednesdays are the best days to catch him)would give you some idea of what might be discovered. 090916 8211 16:25 Well first of all thank you all for your replies 8211 some very useful info there. I8217ve been able to get some more info too. My grandmother, who met my grandfather on the bus route lived in Salford, Broughton area. In that area, the current bus routes and operators in the area are as follows. Stage Coach Manchester 151, Hollinwood, Morrisons 8211 Mandley Park 294, Langley 8211 Trafford Park First Greater Manchester 42, East Didsbury Parrs Wood 8211 North Manchester General Hospital 52, Salford Shopping Centre 8211 Failsworth 59, Rush croft 8211 Manchester Piccadilly 135, Bury - Manchester Piccadilly I have no doubt that the routes are different as are the numbers. But hopefully this narrows down which operators were in that area circa 1943. I8217ll make my way down to to the museum and speak to George Turnbul and see if I can have a look through the archives. Thanks all for your help so far. 120916 8211 06:12 Living in Broughton, which was in the Salford City Transport area, the probability was that your Grandfather drove for that Corporation. The majority of the fleet at that time comprised Leyland Titan TD4 amp 5s and AEC Regents 8.8 litre (Manchester Museum of Transport has a splendid preserved example of one these). There were other marques still in use during that period including a few Dennis8217 acquired in 1932 and Crossley Mancunians dating from 1934 and 1938. Most of the bus fleet at the outbreak of war was less than 5 years old but by the end of the war it was in a deplorable state due to poor maintenance and management. One bus route in the area that does date back to that era is the 135, then the 35 Manchester to Bury route which was a joint service between Bury, Manchester and Salford Corporations. If your Grandfather lived in Broughton it is also conceivable that he worked at Manchester8217s Queens Rd garage in Cheetham Hill as it is not far from Broughton and, if so, experienced driving the Leyland and Crossley Streamliners. Buses from that garage served a wide area of North Manchester up to Rochdale, Oldham and beyond plus several cross city services. 120916 8211 06:13 James, your grandfather would not have been confined to a single route. He would have worked from a depot, and most likely would have worked in rotation on all the routes that that depot operated. If one of those routes went through Broughton then I think the operator would be Salford, as Manchester didn8217t operate in that area until later, unless anyone else knows different. 120916 8211 16:52 Orla has given a very comprehensive and accurate answer. All I would add is that, in the 1930s, up until around 1938, both Manchester and Salford gave job priority to people living within their own boundaries wherever possible due to high levels of unemployment. Had your grandfather been employed before 1938, living in Broughton would have almost certainly precluded his employment by MCTD as the occupation of driver was not hard to fill from within the Manchester boundary. By 1940, with large numbers of eligible men having been recruited to the forces or priority industries, the restrictions were ignored if not lifted. Albion Victor CCB 300 Does anyone know if Albion Victor FT39N Duple C31F which was new to Cronshaw of Hendon 1950 still survives in preservation According to PSVC Preserved Buses it has been listed with Leary, Pilsley for a number of years but does not appear on the rally scene, nor on the DVLA web site. Previous to Leary it was listed with Simpson, Killamarsh circa 1999. Photo above shows it at Wembley in 1952 020616 8211 11:32 Below are two views of CCB 300 owned by Cadman of Thorne taken by me in their yard at Thorne. Date unknown. Also a photo of another vehicle there which may be of interest 571 BWT. 020616 8211 16:06 I8217ve been hoping someone might have remarked on why it is registered in Blackburn. 030616 8211 06:32 Cronshaw coaches were registered in Blackburn until 1959. At one time the company did apparently have an operation there, but it8217s my recollection that registration of the coaches in Blackburn continued even when the bulk, at least, of the operation was in London. This was a time when I didn8217t have the same interest in coaches as buses, and I8217m sure others will be able to elaborate on this story. 030616 8211 06:34 In 1928, Lewis Cronshaw ran an hourly Blackburn to Manchester service. He was established in Blackburn, then started a business in Hendon, but registered some coaches in Blackburn. At some stage it was merged into Valliant-Cronshaw, which later merged with Silverline. 040616 8211 06:44 Cronshaw had a second Albion CCB 301. CCB 301 An FT39 72869B Du 54035 C31F 1950 Cronshaw, NW4 060616 8211 06:37 I came across CCB 300 less than ten years ago under a tarpaulin at a preservation storage site in Derbyshire. It wasn8217t in a usable state, and didn8217t appear to have any work being done on it. I haven8217t heard anything about it since. 070616 8211 07:04 Peter, Pilsley the address of Leary the recorded owner is in Derbyshire so looks like its still owned by him. Amazing the people pay rent on storage year on year but never do any restoration. Hopefully it may find a new owner before it gets beyond restoration. 070616 8211 07:05 Interesting submission from John W, there. I8217d been aware of the listing of CCB 301 on BLOTW (but no sign of CCB 300) so I had assumed there was only the one vehicle, and BLOTW was in error. CCB 300 has now appeared on BLOTW, I8217m inclined to suppose after intervention by John. Could I ask, does the additional information come from a PSVC chassis list I notice that the vehicle is quoted in the caption as an FT39N, while BLOTW gives FT39. There was also an FT39AN model, I seem to recall. Could someone possibly remind me of the differences between the various models I recollect that differing lengthswheelbases was in it somewhere. Also, I see that CCB 300 is consistently given as C31F, rather than FC31F. This is something else which I8217m sure has been discussed before, IIRC some models of Albion were not regarded as full-front since they had never appeared as half-cab, despite being front vertical-engined. Here again, could someone remind 070616 8211 18:57 Dear David, When I read your request for information on which Albion chassis were built with a full-front structure I was at home and had a copy of Albion of Scotstoun by Adams and Milligan to hand. So here is, as far as I can see, the information you are requesting. You are correct that some Albion PSV models with front vertical engines and axles mounted at the front of the chassis were designed to take full-fronted bodywork, having the same cab floor and dash structure as related lorries: these were the Viking CX41 and HD6173, and the Victor FT and VT. The Viking was a full-sized bus for unpaved road markets although one was given a 37-seat Thurgood body and registered (NJH150) in the UK. BLOTW has it as FC37F despite the above. The Victor FT was a smaller model, part of the lightweight FT (under 2-tons unladen, 6 ton Payload) series of goods chassis current from 1939-59 the last of the previous PH series Victors had been built in 1939 and the first of the new series was the petrol powered FT3AB announced in 1947. The engine was a six-cylinder unit initially EN277 of 4.25 litres but from 1949 EN282 of 4.6 litres. Like the Viking it was lorry-derived with a straight frame. By the end of 1948 the FT39 version was in production, this had the four-cylinder 4.88 litre EN286 engine as did the FT37 Chieftain lorry, as the earlier type had been the passenger version of the FT3, major differences being confined to longer springs and dampers all round. A five-speed gearbox with crawler first was fitted to the FT39 as opposed to the four-speed on petrol versions. The A suffix from 1952 indicated a number of driveline and suspension revisions, a change to spring mountings causing a slight lengthening of offered wheelbases. Overall lengths remained constant being coded N for25ft nominal bodied length, L for 27ft 6in and LX for 30ft. The K revisions producing the FT39KAN, KAL and KALX entailed a larger EN287 5.5 litre engine and heavier duty front springs. In all over two thousand FT series Victors were built until 1958 over forty are listed as preservedsurviving in 1999. The VT series was derived from the CH Chieftain and built from 1959 until 1966. Further to what John Wakefield was saying, I am in close proximity to bus preservationists on a weekly basis and have been for a number of years. Often work gets done only when time money and inclination come together for instance: a friend got his Derwent II bodied YRT ready for its MoT over a period of years on that basis. Sadly the first time he was to take it out for public display at the Riverside Museum just under a year ago he suffered a low speed traffic accident at Glasgow Green this, though, has been the spur to get previous in-service damage to the lower body frame repaired and over the last year Scott, a GVVT member who is a time served coachbuilder and who has a real flair for composite bodies has renewed much of the frame below the waist-rail including re-instating a boot that fell out over twenty five years ago. Conversely there are other buses and coaches at Bridgeton that have either never been restored, such as a 1971 ex Glasgow J-Type Atlantean some are currently half restored and have been for a decade (these include an ex-Guernsey Victor lacking seats, glazing and panels) or were once fully restored and then left out in the open to moulder away. The owner of one such here, a pre-war Alexander Bluebird Tiger, will do nothing to re-restore it but will only sell for a price that will recompense him for the work he once did. Thus, it exists critical (previous neglect in the open) but stable (under cover and dry for a few years) and unlikely to be a candidate for rehabilitation while the current owner lives. P. S. Does anyone reading this have a set of BMAC rear lights of 1960s1970s pattern suitable for a Plaxton Derwent II 090616 8211 06:43 To Stephen8217s comments about inactive preservation I would add that it isn8217t always safe to assume that rent is being paid year after year. If an enthusiast is running a storage site and the rent on a vehicle stops coming in, what is he going to do I remember the late Norman Myers, when he was running a site in Bolton, selling the same vehicle three times without ever buying it. On each occasion the owner agreed to give him the vehicle in lieu of unpaid rent Leeds City Transport Fleet List Does anyone know of a Leeds City Transport fleet list 19308217s until it8217s demise. 220516 8211 07:20 The PSV Circle published a fleet history of Leeds City Transport circa 1969. I don8217t know of any update of this history. Another source of information on Leeds buses is the series of books published by the Leeds Transport Historical Society under the title Leeds Transport. There are five volumes in the series and have comprehensive details of Leeds buses. The books are quite expensive averaging about 35 each. 220516 8211 16:34 There now appears to be an attempt to clear stocks of the 8216Leeds Transport8217 series of books. Last year I invested in four of them from MDS Books priced at 25 each, and I noticed last week on a visit to Otley (the Yorkshire one) that a discount bookshop there had them in their window at the same price. This is still of course far too much to spend just for the fleet list aspect, but they are superb books and well worth it at this reduced price. Sheffield to Doncaster I was wondering if anyone might know what number bus in 1973 travelled from Sheffield to Doncaster (via the Steelworks district) and what bus station in Doncaster it arrived at. Also, how long would the journey have taken and was it a double decker bus. Many thanks in advance for your help with this matter 110516 8211 06:45 Service 77 ran from Pond Street Sheffield through the east end to Rotherham and then via Conisborough to Waterdale Doncaster or later the southern (or only) bus station. It was operated by the three municipalities and took I think an hour. For many years it was single deck operated but changes of route or bridges in the 50s made double deck working possible. In the mid sixties Doncaster used newish front entrance PD3s or CVG6s and Rotherham older CVG6s. Corrections and improvements please 120516 8211 06:12 Further rootings (or routings): Single deck working of route 77 (the only Doncaster CT route number ever displayed) seems to have ceased in 1958, when Doncaster 22 23 amp 24 ,1953 AEC Regal III 9.6 half cabs were stood down. 22 now belongs to DOLRS and is preserved at Sandtoft. The Sheffield third was not of course the municipality but SJOC, who at one time used PD230s. and there was once a Southern Bus Station, probably as daunting as the Northern - now no more. Halifax quotCamel-Roofquot AEC Regent This is an enlargement from a Valentine8217s postcard in my collection taken in Commercial Street, Halifax in the mid-1930s. It shows a pair of Halifax Corporation AEC Regents with what I believe were Short Brothers open-staircase bodies with their distinctive quotcamel-roofquot. Mention has been made of this style of bodywork on other Old Bus Photo threads before, but I think this is the first illustration of them on this site. Sadly, on enlargement, exact identification of them has not been possible. The quotcamel-roofquot bodies were designed to allow head-room for upper-deck passengers along the central gangway. I understand this was a failed attempt to compete with Leyland8217s early quotlowbridgequot bodies. With the hump, they look to be normal height so the question is 8211 what apparent advantage or benefit did they offer over normal highbridge bodies 090516 8211 08:28 Thx, Paul, for posting this photo 8211 views of these buses are certainly rare. You pose the question that many of us enthusiasts have asked over the years. To me, they would only be useful in a Beverley Bar situation, rarer even than photos of these buses If the Leyland system was patented, how was it that it became so common 8211 did other bodybuilders pay a royalty to Leyland for building their product 090516 8211 16:56 Presumably camel back buses were more Beverley Bar than Leyland Lquot. Many old rail bridges were arched and the bus would just have to clear a more narrow central span. Like Beverley, it would have required a greater degree of precision The arched rail overbridge at Woodlesford near Leeds has an optionalquot single central lane marked on the highway and Im sure there are others - perhaps in Elland, which may have something to do with these. Maybe our Halifax panel will know how this worked in practice The Leyland patent was more desperation than comfort, trapped (not literally) between bridges of the railway boom and length restrictions for single decks. Access was difficult, capacity restricted by spreading passengers and the limited height did not help to ventilate the cig smoke. Then there was the lower saloon stoop. 090516 8211 16:57 Surely they would lessen the chances of a bridge strike at any arched bridge. Perhaps Halifax had a preponderance of those and thought this design could be a cost cutter. 090516 8211 16:58 Halifax8217s 8216Camel Roofed8217 Regents came from three different bodybuilders 8211 the first ones from Short Bros. the second ones from Hoyal and the later ones from English Electric. There were recognisable differences between all these and both the vehicles in the photo are from the later batches with English Electric bodies. The one in the foreground appears to be in the CP 94xx series (116-120, CP 9442-9446). The one in the background looks to have just two or three numbers in its registration number, which would make it one of 2-6 (JX 321-325), 103-105 (JX 46-48) or 133-136 (JX 331-334). 090516 8211 16:58 Chris, I believe I have read somewhere that Leyland8217s patent for the lowbridge side-gangway layout only required a payment when used by others for a limited number of years 8211 perhaps five During that time, such alternatives as these hump back roofs, and double side gangway upstairs were used to avoid paying a royalty to Leyland. Once the patent royalty fee period had expired, the other designs seem to have been rapidly dropped in favour of Leyland8217s design. I cannot recall where I read this, but someone else may be able to pinpoint the source or veracity of this. 090516 8211 16:58 The information following is from the late Alan Townsin8217s book on AEC Regents published by TPC and correspondence in the PDF copies of Leyland Torque. Leyland did have a patent on the Titan style body it was purchased from General Motors, who had several us patents on double deck body design but had only extended the one by the Fifth Avenue coach Company to other territories. It expired prior to world war 2. Notably the Yellow Coach Rackham US patent is different to the patent Leyland bought. The purpose of the Camel-Roof body (an AEC registered design) was cosmetic, to make a highbridge bus look as low as a titan from the viewpoint of a pedestrian. This mattered in areas were double deck buses were novel and in areas where Titans were seen as safe and the previous generation of double decks such as the Leyland G7 and the AEC PS not. 100516 8211 06:51 Thanks, Gentlemen, for your thoughts and logical suggestions of the design being an early quotBeverley Barquot idea to negotiate arched railway bridges. (Was it this design which led EYMS to take the next step) Many thanks also to John S, for your local knowledge. Your reply opens up more questions and conundrums. Why did these come from three body builders and over what period Did Short Bros and Hoyal (who) decline to make any more because of an AEC royalty demand Their fleet numbers and registrations also raise an eyebrow in their lack of sequence. Did they take the fleet numbers of withdrawn buses Being from a city where fleet numbers and registrations followed a fairly logical and sequential pattern (Leeds) it seems strange that fleet numbers 2-6 should have higher registration numbers than 103-105 etc. Similarly, for the Halifax prefix CP registrations to be well up into the 9000s in the early 1930s seems remarkable. Perversely, for the prefix JX to have only two or three numbers during this same period seems equally incredible. John, please can you give us more fleet details of all three batches of these remarkable buses 110516 8211 06:43 Thx, Michael H for some background info about the Leyland patent. As for the Hoyal Body Corporation, they were a shortlived bus body builder (single and double deck) working out from Weybridge between 1922 and 1931, when they went into voluntary liquidation. 110516 8211 12:55 It is possible that in those early days these Regents may have been ordered from AEC as complete vehicles and then the bodywork subcontracted out by them to various bodybuilders in the south-east. Leyland offered a complete standard vehicle at the time and AEC8217s Chief Designer John Rackham was keen to have a similar arrangement for the Regent. Hoyal had its origins as Chalmer amp Hoyer Ltd. registered at 41 Charing Cross Road, London. They were the first company to take out the patent rights to build the Weymann flexible framed car body design, and became prolific builders of car bodywork 8211 particularly for Morris. They also were early builders of motor boats at premises near Poole in Dorset. By 1927 Chalmer had left and H. W. Allingham was sales manager. Taking the 8216Hoy8217 of Hoyer and the 8216al8217 of Allingham the company became The Hoyal Body Corporation, and around this time they began diversifying into bus and charabanc bodywork, but this only appears to have lasted for about four years or so. I have tried to put together a list of the camel-roofed Regents but it doesn8217t really help to explain things to be honest 8211 not without having the entire fleet history before you. There seems to have been some initial indecision at first as to whether to have separate number series for the two fleets or not. Buses were allocated fleet numbers upon being ordered, but some were changed upon or just after delivery to fill gaps, and they weren8217t necessarily delivered or put into service in the order they were ordered in. Also in between the Regents there were Regal single deckers too. As for the numbering of the Halifax fleet 8211 well, where do I start. The numbering system started straight forwardly enough with the three original Daimler CC types nos. 1-3 of 191213 and continued onwards up to ex-demonstrator Regent 57 in 1930, with just six Karriers 1-6 reusing vacated numbers. 53-56 were the first 8216Camel Roofed8217 Regents. Then in 1929 the Joint Committee came into being, though its effect numberwise took a year or so to take effect. A considerable number of former Corporation vehicles were transferred to the JOC fleet, but retained their original numbers. The fleet of George Garrard of West Vale was taken over by the JOC and their vehicles became 60-65. Four more 8216Camel Roofed8217 Regents for the JOC became 66-69. Thirteen vehicles from the Hebble fleet became 70-82, and an unknown number of LMS Railway vehicles were briefly operated, the only known ones being 8384 but is is believed that there were probably many more taking numbers maybe to around 100 or so. The next new Corporation buses 8216jumped over8217 the JOC numbers and started at 107, continuing to 124, whilst lots of new JOC vehicles flooded in to replace the older and second hand ones taking their vacated numbers and continuing up to 105, then 8216jumped over8217 the Corporation numbers and continued from 125. The next Corporation deliveries then reverted back to a new series starting from 2 (the original Karrier no. 1 still being in service). From here Corporation buses ran in a series from 2 up to 88 by 1940, and JOC buses continued from 125 and reached 208 by 1939. After the war JOC buses continued the prewar series from 209, eventually reaching 293 by 1954. A new series for postwar Corporation buses began at 301 and reached 360 by 1951. By 1954 there were just 25 prewar Regents remaining (all from the Corporation fleet) so the entire Corporation fleet was put into registration number order and renumbered from 11 to 86, though a solitary batch of manual gearbox PD28217s were kept separate as 100-108. A further batch of new CVG6 followed on as 87-98. From 1958, new GM Richard Le Fevre commenced new series for both fleets, Corporation buses starting from 1, and JOC buses from 201. They were numbered in neat blocks with gaps between e. g. 1-9, 11-18, 21-28 etc, and equivalent buses for the two fleets had matching numbers e. g. Regent V8217s 11-18 (Corp.) and 211-218 (JOC). Later many of the earlier JOC buses were renumbered into the 3008217s to make way for future deliveries. Then in 1963 Geoffrey Hilditch took over, and8230..well8230. The system went totally astray after that 120516 8211 06:14 My word, John 8211 many thanks for a fantastic reply. I8217m very grateful that you took the trouble to respond to my rather presumptuous request for further information. What a complex and fascinating history Halifax TramwaysCorporation had. Until now, I8217d only given attention to their wonderful tramway where, in the early days, no far-flung outpost was seemingly off limits, regardless of their potential traffic earnings. Sorry, John 8211 another question: Could these quotcamel-roofquot Regents also have been the first to wear the quotGlasgowquot colour scheme 120516 8211 15:57 Yes, the first 8216Camel Roofed8217 Regents were also the first to carry the green, orange and cream livery. The first buses of 191213 had varnished wood bodies with the bonnets and other bits painted in the current tram style dark blue. With the arrival of manager Ben Hall, as the trams changed to a dark red and cream (not neccessarily the correct terms) so the buses became cream and the same dark red, with the later Karrier WL68217s and the one-off experimental Karrier Chaser, Dennis EV and Leyland Tiger painted in allover dark red. The prototype AEC Regent(chassis no. 661001) with Short 8216Camel Roofed8217 body was put into service by them as a demonstrator on 13th February 1929, registered MT 2114 and in the current AEC demonstration livery of off white with blue relief. It paid an early visit to Halifax in that year where it impressed sufficiently to result in an immediate order for some similar buses. By November 1929 it was repainted into Glasgow8217s green, orange and cream livery for demonstration in that city, resulting also in an order from them. It has often been said that the inspiration for Halifax adopting a similar livery was due to its demonstration here in the Glasgow livery, but a reliable authority on the subject insists that he has photographic evidence that it was still in the original off-white and blue at the time. It is still fairly certain that at some point after its visit to Halifax, and after repaint into Glasgow livery, some local councillors saw it 8211 probably at a show, or maybe it even stopped off locally on its way to Scotland 8211 and they made their minds up then. The first three Halifax Regents (53-55, CP 8009-8011) were delivered in November 1929, The official AEC photograph of Halifax Regent 53 was apparently taken almost immediately after the one of MT 2114 after repaint into Glasgow livery so the whole process of seeing the Glasgow livery, deciding to adopt it, having Short8217s paint them and getting them them into service seems to have happened impossibly quickly. Alan Townsin in his TPC book 8216Best of British Buses 8211 AEC Regents 1929-19428217 confirms that designer John Rackham wanted to offer a standard body to complement his Regent chassis, and was responsible for the 8216Camel Roofed8217 design and, having no bodybuilding department of their own, he had Short Bros. build a number of bodies on the first few chassis. The demonstrator was the first one, and Halifax took nine, others going to the National Omnibus Co. Wallasey Corporation and two went to Cornish Buses Ltd.(later taken over by Western National). The initial Halifax livery was very similar to the Glasgow one in layout, with orange lower panels, cream from a band below the lower deck windows to the cantrail (and including the bonnet top), green upper panels, a cream band below the upper deck windows, green around the upper deck windows, and a silver roof. After a short time this was modified so that the lower deck window pillars and surrounds were also green (as was the bonnet top), with just cream bands above and below, giving a 8216three-banded8217 layout. From the mid-19308217s this was changed again such that the upper deck window pillars and surrounds became cream, and roofs became green instead of silver. With all the above liveries there was extensive use of black lining separating the different colours. For the record, further minor changes were made after the war with a reduction in some of the black lining. GM Roderick McKenzie introduced a simplified non-banded livery with the arrival of the CVG68217s in 1954, and then applied this to many of the existing vehicles, but there was a quick reversion to the previous style inbetween his leaving and his successor arriving 8211 thanks to some underhand dealings by the body shop. Once again, under Geoffrey Hilditch8217s tenure the livery variations were many and varied. 130516 8211 06:07 Many thanks again, John, for your comprehensive reply which gives me more insight into the origin of the Glasgow livery in Halifax. I never realised that there were so many variations of it. Fascinating. 130516 8211 06:08 A further point which comes to mind after reading Alan Townsins book is that the camel roof design was simply a device to avoid the Leyland lowbridge patent whilst making the bus look like the popular TD1, even though it was essentially a highbridge bus. Leyland introduced the Highbridge body for the TD1 about 1930, so did the patent then elapse, as the standard lowbridgehighbridge concept seems to have been adopted by most body builders by this time Not really anything to do with quotBeverley Barquot type ideas 150516 8211 06:56 So the 8216camel roof8217 double-decker was an AEC design to avoid making 8216lowbridge8217 patent payments. I8217ll bet that gave Leyland the hump82308230 (Well someone had to say it) 150516 8211 08:39 Johns comprehensive historical knowledge of the Halifax transport scene never ceases to amaze me. OBP is privileged indeed to include him as a valued contributor. On the subject of the camel roof concept, this, as John Whitaker states, was devised entirely for cosmetic reasons, the appearance from ground level being similar to that of the low built patented Leyland lowbridge (single offside upper saloon gangway) design. The Leyland lowbridge concept originated in the United States, where, between 1922 and 1926, G. J. Rackham had worked for The Yellow Coach Manufacturing Company, later to become the bus manufacturing arm of General Motors. On being appointed as Chief Engineer to Leyland in the summer of 1926, Rackham brought back with him the idea of using the US lowbridge arrangement in his new double deck design, and negotiated the patent rights accordingly. With its lowered height, the new Titan looked supremely stable against much of the tall, ungainly double deck competition, and this undoubtedly contributed to the initial sales success. On moving to AEC to create the even more modern Regent, Rackham was prevented by patent rights from emulating the Leyland lowbridge concept, though, as I understand it, the lowbridge double gangway upper deck design was still available to use, albeit at a penalty in passenger accommodation. Instead, Rackham fell back on another American idea. In the USA at that time, some double deck bodies were constructed with the lowered headroom over the upper saloon seats, but the central gangway was open to the elements. Rackham adapted this to meet the vagaries of the British climate by humping the roof to give adequate gangway headroom, and the camel roof was born. As public acceptance quickly grew of the stability of the highbridge double decker 8211 normal height Leyland Titans and Regents began appearing from 1929 8211 the camel roof thankfully faded away into history. It would seem, also, that the Leyland lowbridge patent lapsed after about five years. As John has described, in its brief existence between 1921 and 1931, Chalmer and Hoyer, who became, from 1928, The Hoyal Body Corporation of Weybridge, was preoccupied mainly with car bodywork manufacture on the patented lightweight Weymann principle. This employed a (very) lightweight wooden frame with metal inserts at all the joints to preclude timber to timber contact. The whole thing was held together with straining wires and then covered with a layer of muslin stretched over chicken wire, which in turn received a cosmetic layer of leathercloth as a final finish. Internally, seats and fittings were bolted directly to the chassis. The end result was extraordinarily light and reasonably rigid 8211 even some upmarket cars like Rolls Royces had Weymann patent bodies 8211 but one shudders to think how such a flimsy construction would stand up to accident impact. The designer was Charles Terres Weymann, who, despite the German sounding name, was born in Haiti of an American father and Haitian mother, and thus held dual American French nationality. He was a pioneer aviator from 1909 and flew during WW1, and his lightweight construction ideas were clearly based upon early aircraft manufacturing principles. He set up a factory in Paris and another in Indianapolis, and licensed his car bodywork design to a number of British manufacturers 8211 Gurney Nutting, Harrington, Mann Egerton, Mulliner, Plaxton and Rover are names that will be familiar to OBP aficionados. Obviously gratified with the success of this venture, Weymann himself then set up a British manufacturing facility, initially in Putney in 1923 before moving to the old Bleriot aeroplane works in Addlestone in 1925, only a short distance from the Hoyal business in Weybridge. By the end of the 1920s the Weymann car body method was losing popularity in favour of metal panel construction and the fortunes of several of the licencees faded likewise, with several moving into other product areas such as bus and coach bodywork. Hoyal became bus builders, but the depression took its toll on many in the motor industries, and the firm folded in 1931, not helped, one imagines, by the more successful presence of the Weymann business just down the road. Indeed, the Weymann factories in Paris and Indianapolis themselves closed in 1930 and 1931 respectively, but the Addlestone business prospered right through its MCW phase from 1932 until closure, after a lengthy strike, in 1966. The Hoyal bus bodies would seem to have been quite soundly constructed, and the firm was well regarded by the local Brooklands motor racing circuit for its speedy, last minute repairs and modifications to the racing cars. Here is a link to a picture of the last Hoyal bus body to enter the Halifax Corporation fleet. AEC Regent No.115, CP 9078, was placed in service on 24 July 1931, but three more entered the Joint Committee fleet after that date, the last, CP 9439, not entering service until 13 January 1932, well past the final creditors meeting of the Hoyal business which was held on 28 August 1931 to wind up the business voluntarily. One wonders where CP 9439 had spent the last four months of 1931. Perhaps it became embroiled in the scramble for assets by the creditors. nonsequitur. freeforums. org Moving on to the subject of the Halifax fleet numbering system under Geoffrey Hilditch, this was something that totally bemused me during my two years as a Traffic Clerk at Skircoat Road. As an example, the OBP entry for Halifax Corporation 8211 AEC Regal 8211 BCP 544 8211 258 tells of the strange, idiosyncratic approach. This bus was originally JOC number 269 before briefly passing to the Corporation fleet as number 99. It then went back again as JOC number 269, but was then renumbered 268, a number borne by an identical Regal that was withdrawn in 1964. Finally, this bus became number 258, a number previously carried by Albion Nimbus RJX 258, which was the first of these unloved machines to be sold off (to Warrington) in 1965. 268 was then given to a new dual purpose Leopard, and 258 was later awarded to the rebodied ex Bourne and Balmer Reliance NRK 350. Were fleet numbers subject to a rationing scheme in Halifax The whole merry dance seemed utterly pointless to my simple southern senses. Other buses moved into and out of the 300 series of numbers under a system that would have surely baffled the boffins at Bletchley Park. To add to Johns detailed descriptions of the various Halifax liveries, perhaps one should add the two experimental efforts. The first was applied to a Regent III in February 1955, which had unpainted aluminium panels below the lower saloon waistline instead of orange paint. Curiously, in his book Halifax Passenger Transport 1887 to 1963 GGH describes this episode in a caption to a picture of bus number 381281, BCP 675, yet gives the identity of the vehicle as number 282, BCP 676 perhaps John might be able to clarify the matter. The other experiment involved Daimler CVG6 number 285, DCP 844 which had the areas of orange and green reversed, green at the bottom, orange at the top. This was entirely sensible, for, besides being subject to severe fading, orange is a peculiarly difficult colour to match. Green is far less troublesome. During my own time with HPTD it was quite common to witness buses with the lower repaired panels displaying an unsightly chequerboard appearance in varying hues of orange. Legend tells us that the reversed livery provoked a storm of outraged protest, though I cannot understand why this should have been the case, unless it emanated from an attitude in certain quarters of inbuilt intransigence towards intelligent progress that I myself noted during my (thankfully brief) sojourn at Skircoat Road. That livery would have resembled the old Chatham amp District scheme which had green at the bottom and brown above. A Halifax version would have surely adopted black mudguards and bolder lining out to beneficial effect. Ah well, its all down to personal taste, I suppose. s622.photobucket 160516 8211 06:46 Thanks for your kind comment, Roger. There were one or two errors in Hilditch8217s book, and the caption to the photo of 381 is an example. I8217m sure I have a photo of the RegentPark Royal to which he refers which was in standard livery save for the lower panels being in an unpainted stucco form. I can8217t lay my hands on it for some reason but I8217m fairly sure it was 282 (BCP 676). The one depicted in the photo in the book is of 381 (formerly 281, BCP 675), which was repainted in the 19508217s19608217s Glasgow style 8216half and half8217 style with all orange below the upper deck floor level, all green above, with a single cream band separating the two. He had obviously got his wires crossed a liitle there. I don8217t remember seeing 282 with the unpainted panels, but I do remember 381 and it looked absolutely dreadful. It is surprising how just rearranging the same colours into different proportions and layouts can actually make the shades themselves look different. I also remember the CVG6MCCW 285 (DCP 844) in its 8216reversed8217 livery. It wasn8217t an exact reversal of the standard orange and green livery. The green lower area extended unrelieved right up to the top of the lower deck windows, there was the a cream band above the windows, orange upper deck panels to just below the upper deck windows, cream just below and around those windows, then a green roof. I was only very young at the time but I do remember everyone who saw it saying how awful it looked. I do have two photographs showing it in this short-lived scheme and the green colour looks a very different shade altogether 8211 much paler 8211 but being taken from an old 19508217s slide one can8217t always trust the colour rendition. I must say that I8217m glad they didn8217t adopt that style, practical though it may have been, but then as a died-in-the-wool Halifax man I am a bit of a traditionalist I suppose. Unfortunately I am prevented from reproducing either photo here, more8217s the pity. 160516 8211 06:46 Thank you very much, Roger, for adding yet more fascinating information about these buses. I never thought that my old postcard would have generated so much detail and interest. Your photo of the last Hoyel bus begs the question about its livery. I know black and white photos can be deceptive, but the lower panels seem to be very dark compared to my postcard. Assuming both photos show them with the Glasgow livery, were the shades changed at some stage or was it simply a trick of the light 160516 8211 07:49 Roger Coxs reference to the storm in Halifax at the possibility of reversed bus livery should not be a surprise. It is sometimes said that the reason Halifax preserves so much of its handsome Victorian (and earlier) town centre is that, unlike its neighbours, its good folk could never agree in the 60s on a plan for redevelopment. 160516 8211 08:47 As with all subjects, reference to the published literature usually supplies an answer. Between us all, on this site, we probably have access to just about every bus book ever published, so most answers can be quotdug outquot With regard to the published literature, I have always regarded Alan Townsin as THE quotguruquot. although there are, of course, other worthy contributors Looking at ATs AEC books again, it seems that the first production run of Regents had some buses with Hall Lewis lowbridge bodies. Did these avoid the Leyland patent by having 2 gangways as the contemporary Salford Lances, and were the Devon General Titans and Oxford Regents like this too The open staircase camel roof body seems to have been first supplied to Southern National. Wallasey had a single bus, and there was, of course ST1139. Who else got them as well as Halifax The camel roof was also later available as an enclosed staircase body. Nottingham received 2 batches in 1930, one by Hall Lewis, where the quothumpquot was even more pronounced. All very interesting quotstuffquot 160516 8211 10:00 Thanks for that clarification about those experimental liveries, John, and you have every reason to feel proud of being a dyed in the wool Halifax man. As for my comment about 8216resistance to intelligent progress in certain quarters8217, you know exactly what I mean. It was certainly not a reflection of the entirely justifiable and commendable generic independence of the Halifax approach to events. As you describe it, the reversed version of the scheme does seem dreadful. My juvenile appreciation (I was seven years old when I last beheld it) of the Chatham amp District colours were entirely favourable, and a straightforward swap of the Hilditch era layout of green and orange would have surely been OK. Turning to Paul8217s comment about the relative shades of the Hoyal body in the picture, this suggests that the photograph was taken on orthochromatic rather than panchromatic film, which rendered reddish colours rather darkly, and blue green ones a bit light. Finally, in response to Joe, yes, Halifax can commend itself upon the retention of its splendid Victorian heritage, unlike my home town of Croydon with its 1960s onwards architectural excrescences, but Halifax did then disfigure the skyline with Burdock Way, so the locals needn8217t get too smug. 160516 8211 17:50 ST1139 had a Short Bros. highbridge body, John. However, there were five ST8217s with double gangwayed Short bodied which were delivered in May 1930 (ST 136 and 140 were two from memory). Maybe the twin gangways were, indeed, different enough to get around the patent problem. Photos elsewhere on OBP are here: tinyurlgv3k58g 170516 8211 06:55 Thanks for correcting my senior moment re. ST1139 Chris. The Wallasey photo looks like a camel type but can anyone confirm this as it is difficult to tell from my photo. Short Bros were building both types at the same time I have found 5 more Camel types Nottingham had 5 rear entrance enclosed 1929 Regents with English Electric bodies, of pure EE design. Perhaps we should collectively compile a full list of the camels Does anyone have any info about Howards Coaches operating in Surrey somewhere near Cobham Ridges, maybe 1930-1950 I have a photo at a Railway Station with a level crossing with a single deck Bedford coach with that name on the destination indicator. 060516 8211 08:31 BLOTW shows a new Bedford OB chassis 147359 with Duple C29F 48139 registered to Howards, West Byfleet 11951. 070516 8211 06:49 My Little Red Book for 19589 shows Howard8217s Garage, 12 Station Approach, West Byfleet, Surrey as an operator. They had 3 BedfordDuple vehicles and both Stage and Excursions and Tours licences. The livery was described as tan and buff. They are not in my 1968 Passenger Transport Yearbook, but as neither book was a complete list of operators it doesn8217t necessarily mean a lot, but it points to them ceasing trading some time between those dates. Looking on the net there8217s an interesting picture with more details at flic. krp881RU3 This vehicle still exists, see flic. krp8aRvGW 070516 8211 06:50 A picture of a 1931 Bedford WLB operated by Howard may be found here:- flickrphotosmegaanorak 110516 8211 12:56 I imagine that the 8216HOSPITAL destination, that the bus was going to, was the Rowley Bristow Hospital in nearby Pyrford, now long gone 5261 Engine Swap at Sutton Coldfield I was an 18 year old fitter at Midland Red Sutton Coldfield garage when it was decided to swap the Gardner engine in D11 5261 for a 10.5 D9 unit. Although it took a bit of juggling it worked, it seemed somewhat harsher than the Gardner but if I remember all those years a go it seemed popular with the drivers. I transferred to Swadlincote depot shortly after wards to get married so I never found out what happened to it. If anyone has any information I8217d be very interested to here what happened to it. 260416 8211 14:53 There is some information here: midlandredvehicles It says a Gardner engine was refitted in 1968 and the bus was transferred to West Midlands PTE in 1973. Old Coventry Corporation Buses As a child in the early 19608217s I remember travelling on the old Coventry Corporation buses, open at the back and half a cab at the front with a backward facing full width seat on the lower deck at the front. Who made these buses 260416 8211 14:54 Hello Mr Edmunds, You might like to look at this website which shows a good selection of Coventry buses operating in the 1960s. Hope this helps to rekindle good childhood memories. sct61.org. uk Tracing origin of Registration SOX 1 I am trying to trace the origin of Registration SOX 1. I am lead to believe that it was first used on a buscoach in Birmingham, allocated in around 1955. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I have owned this number since about 1975. 240416 8211 07:30 I8217ve checked buslistsontheweb. co. uk and they do not list that registration, by no means conclusive but nevertheless it probably means it was an uncommon type of coach with a small operator or even a works or welfare bus. 250416 8211 06:44 Long shot8212but could it have belonged to a hosiery manufacturer in, say, Leicester 280416 8211 16:56 The SOX (series) was issued Birmingham CBC January 1956. A few cases are known of individual numbers (low numbers) being issued prior to the main series ie 8216HOV8217 for BCT buses 8211 some two months before. For some strange reason my old addled brain seems to recall seeing SOX on a Commer Avenger SB (WorthingtonAllenways perhaps) so don8217t give up on the PSV connection. 290416 8211 06:10 Nigel, according to Bus Lists On The Web, in 1956 Jackson8217s of Castle Bromwich took delivery of SOX 700, a Bedford SBGDuple C41F coach, and Worthington8217s of Birmingham received SOX 858859, which were Commer Avenger IIIDuple C37F coaches, so your memory has stood you in good stead The Commer Avenger IIIs (with Plaxton C41F bodies) delivered to Allenways are listed as being SOV 880-883. Although this information does not really progress Roland8217s query as to the history of registration SOX 1, I had wondered if it could originally have been on a Mayoral car. However, the only ones that come close in Noel Woodall8217s trusty book 8216Car Numbers8217 are SOB 1, issued to the Lord Bishop of Birmingham, and SOL 1 which graced Solihull8217s Mayoral car. Is it possible that SOX 1 may have been issued to a motorcycle when new, as at one time quite a few licencing authorities reserved two-digit registrations for 2-wheeled machines 290416 8211 14:27 Brendan, I thought that the reason for reserving two-digit numbers for two-wheeled vehicles started after the introduction of year suffix registrations. There was no room on motor-cycles or scooters for 7-digit registrations, so purely a space-saving decision to limit plates to 6 digits. My Lambretta was registered SKA 59G, the rear plate being square with SKA over 59G. 300416 8211 06:25 With respect, I don8217t think that is quite right, Dave. In the 1960s I had a 1935 Scott Flying Squirrel with the registration WK 9322 (high mileage memory now a bit hazy 8211 it may have been WV) and I also had a Pannonia 250 motorbike registered BLN 877B. 300416 8211 08:44 In the 60s I bought a car from one of those nice little dealers: I wanted a fairly distinctive registration (free) so he rang the Council and said Can I have a motorcycle number - love (this was Sheffield)- they sold them as well. I got one - two numbers and a suffix. 020516 8211 13:57 WV was Wiltshire, Roger. and your bike might well have been WV. I had a 1937 Ariel Red Hunter motorbike, by which time the registration had become 33, in my case AWV 260. 030516 8211 08:02 WK 9322 was issued early 1929, WV 9322 late 1935. So Roger8217s motorbike was probably WV. 040516 8211 06:19 Many thanks to Chris and David for clarifying the number of my old Scott motor bike. WV is clearly correct. I just wish that I still had that machine now 8211 a 1935 Flying Squirrel with a 1930 short stroke 600 cc engine. I wonder if it still exists. The square rear number plate employed quite small letters and figures to get 9322 on it. Motor cycles used to have a curved vertical registration plate along the top of the front mudguard, but this nowadays seems to have been abandoned, presumably on safety grounds. 050516 8211 06:49 There seemed to be an interim period, Roger. My last motorbike, a 1957 BSA B34, had a front mudguard with flat side edges, deep enough to display the registration mark either side. In 1962, I bought my first car, a Renault Dauphine 8211 356 DLA 050516 8211 06:50 Yes the vertical mounted front registration plate ceased being fitted on safety grounds. Apparently they were very good at scything into the flesh if you went over the handle bars or that of pedestrians unlucky enough to get in the way. Trent X8 Nottingham to Gt Yarmouth Service After reading the fascinating and enlightening article by Neville Mercer on Huntingdon Street Bus Station and additionally now having been proffered photographic evidence of LUT vehicles departing from Nottingham to Great Yarmouth, Please can anyone offer any further information or perhaps a timetable of this Trent Gt Yarmouth service. Thanks in advance 010416 8211 09:17 Are we sure this was X8 as my ABC for 1953 says X7 It shows a summer Saturday service of up to 6 services per day with 1 on Monday-Thursday 2 on Friday and Sunday with one journey on a Saturday extended tofrom Derby. Schedule on the core section was 6 hours 25 minutes outbound and 6 hours 40 minutes inbound 010416 8211 09:23 Responding to the QampA from Mike Norris today, Im attaching two scans of the Summer 1971 timetable for the service. The timetable was subject to seasonal adjustments but this particular version gives a fair idea of the underlying service pattern. 030416 8211 11:07 My thanks to Roger for the correction (Not X8, but X7) and to Mike for taking the trouble to download the service information. Thanks Gents. Having read Nevilles latest posting about the City Coach Company Leyland TEP1 Gnu which was only one of three before being followed by the TEC2 chassis. This got me to thinking what exactly did the TEP and TEC stand for, in fact what did most of the Leyland codes stand for. Is anyone interested in solving these codes If we manage it I will compile a table and add them to the 8216Abreviations8217 page. I will start it off with the two easiest:- So if anyone wants to have a go at some of the others ie Tiger Cub PSUC code, Lion LT or PLSC code or maybe the Cheetah LZ code. 310316 8211 15:33 I have a bell ringing that the S in code TS1 originally stood for Side (driver alongSide engine, i. e. forward control), differentiating the higher capacity TS1 Tiger from the bonneted TB1 Tigress8230 When a double-deck version came along, the TD1 was created. That said, I think that the follow-on PS1 derivative did indeed indicate Passenger 8216Single-decker8217. This one will run for some time, I think 310316 8211 15:56 I8217m afraid that the quotPquot in PD and PS stands for quotPost-warquot rather than anything to do with an engine. The PD1 and PS1 had the E181 engine while the PD2, PD3, and PS2 had the more up-to-date O.600. PSU1234 as in Royal Tigers, early Worldmasters, 36ft Leopards and 32ft Leopards respectively stood for Post-war Single-deck, Underfloor engined and PSUC the same plus the word Cub to differentiate between a Royal Tiger and a Tiger Cub. In the PSUR designation of Panthers the quotRquot indicated rear-engined, with PSURC continuing the logic by being a Panther Cub. However, many other post-war designs followed a completely different logic. The HR4044 were the quotHome Rangequot versions of the single-deck Olympic (the number indicating maximum seating capacity) while the light-weight version of the Olympic, the Olympian, used LW1 and LW2 for the bus and semi-coach versions. When the Worldmaster became available on the home market (for those who found the Tiger Cub too gutless) somebody decided to allocate quotRTquot designations 8211 presumably to indicate Royal Tiger as there was also a small number of models called Royal Tiger Cubs with RTC codes. I could go on, but I8217m supposed to be typing the text of my next book so I8217ll let somebody else have a go 310316 8211 15:58 Thanks for that Neville I have amended my copy above and made a note of the rest for the 8216Abreviations8217 page. 010416 8211 07:07 There has been quite a bit of correspondence in the Leyland Torque magazine about the designation of the 19508217s integral, Tiger Cub-based Olympian single decker. Readers researching official Leyland and MCW company documents seem to have concluded that the LW designation was purely an MCW Group one, and that Leyland themselves do not seem to have allocated a code. I would agree that when the Tiger TS was introduced the 8216S8217 does seem to have indicated 8216Side Type8217 i. e. forward control, this having been applied to other earlier models throughout the 19208217s. However, with the equivalent Titan TD clearly indicating 8216T-series, Double Deck8217, it gradually became believed that 8216S8217 indicated 8216Single Deck8217. As for the Gnu TEC2. This was based on a Steer twin-steer, six-wheel goods chassis, modified to have the engine and cab on a front overhang. The Steer was coded TEC (there were TEC1, 2, 3 amp 4). In the same T-range of goods chassis there was the Hippo conventional 3-axle chassis, coded TSW (T-series, Six Wheeled), and the Octopus 4-axle chassis coded TEW (T-series, Eight Wheeled). However, faced with coming up with a code for the Steer they seem to have regarded the model as basically an Octopus with a rear axle removed, so modified TEW to TEC 8211 so maybe, and rather irrationally, it stood for T-series, Eight, Chinese. As often happens (look at London Transport type codes) someones starts off with a logical system, then as time passes and new models and complexities arise, the system all goes a bit astray and illogical. 030416 8211 07:27 An obvious continuation of Neville8217s theme is PDR1 and 2 for Atlantean and its prototype predecessors 8211 post-war double-deck rear-engined. One small correction: the Panther Cub was PSRC. Presumably PSURC was too long for somebody or something. 030416 8211 08:58 The P in PLSC (the Lion) stood for quotpneumaticquot at a time when tyres were changing from solid rubber to air inflated. 030416 8211 09:20 I have received of a scan from a book that states that the P in PD, PS, PSU etc stood for Passenger. It also states that the Panther Cub was PSURC 8211 P assenger, S ingle deck, U nderfloor R ear engine, C ub, 040416 8211 06:43 Originally Leyland8217s early models were allocated a single letter code, going alphabetically from A and I think reaching O. In the 19208217s they started a new system whereby a seemingly random single letter code was used to indicate the weight range of the model. 30cwtZ 2-tonA 3-tonC 4-tonG 5-tonP 6-tonQ. This was followed by a number to indicate variations e. g. C7, G2. When forward control variants were introduced Leyland referred to these as Side Types and inserted an 8216S8217 in front of the code e. g. SG9. Some models were of higher build, so had an 8216H8217 inserted e. g. GH2, SGH6. Until then the same basic chassis had been used for both goods and passenger use, but to compete with other makers a new range of chassis was introduced specifically designed for passenger use. These had lower chassis profiles and were allocated the prefix 8216L8217. They also introduced names for all new models at the same time. These were the small Leveret LA1, LA2 amp LA3 (L-series, A2 ton, with three variations) Lioness LC1 (L-series, C3 tons, first version) Lion LSC1 (L-series, Side Type, C3 tons, 1st variant) Leopard LSG2 (L-series, Side Type, G4 tons, 2nd variant), which was very rare Leviathan LSP1 double decker (L-series, Side Type, P5 tons, 1st variant). As Roger mentions, when pneumatic tyres were fitted these models acquired a 8216P8217 in front, giving PLA, PLC, PLSC, PLSP etc. When these models were replaced by the Rackham-designed T-series, the six cylinder single decker was the Tiger TS (T-series, Side Type) which ran from versions TS1 to TS8, then TS11. A few TS78217s and TS88217s had a second rear axle added to allow them to be 30 feet long, and if this was non-driven (i. e. trailing) a 8216T8217 was added to the end, or if double drive a final 8216D8217 was added 8211 e. g. TS7D, TS8T. The double decker was the Titan TD (Titan Double) which ran from TD1 to TD7. A six-wheel double decker specifically designed as such was the Titanic TT (T-series, Three axle) running from TT1 to TT6. Goods models are outside the scope of this site, but the Badger TA4 (T-series, A2 tons, 4th version) was occasionally bodied as a bus, and West Mon UDC certainly used the Bull TQ1 (T-series, Q6 tons, 1st version) and Beaver TSC8 (T-series, Side Type, C3 tons, 8th version) as buses for the Bargoed Hill service. (The C3 tons had though by that time become inappropriate for the Beaver, as it was by then about a 67 tonner ). A lower powered 4-cylinder single decker was the Lion LT (presumably Light, T-series 8211 though they were not exactly light) which ran from LT1 to LT9, with LT5A and LT5B variants, though the LT9 was effectively a TS8 chassis with the Lion engine. A bonnetted version was the Lioness LTB1 (Light. T-series, Bonnetted). A bonnetted LTB3 with Tiger units was confusingly named Tigress. From 1932 a small, bonnetted lighter chassis was introduced to compete with Bedford etc. Built at the former Trojan works at Kingston, Surrey it was the Cub KP (Kingston, Passenger 8211 the goods model was KG) going from KP1 to KP4. The introduction of an oil (i. e. diesel) engine caused an 8216O8217 to be added, giving KPO2, KPO3 etc. Forward control models had an 8216S8217 (Side Type) prefix, giving SKP2, SKPO3 etc. Then a new Light Six engine (which could be petrol or diesel) came along, an 8216A8217 indicating petrol, or 8216Z8217 indicating diesel e. g. KPZ4, SKPZ5. The largest SKPZ5 version was named Lion Cub. The Lion 8211 especially when bodied as a coach 8211 tended to be rather underpowered, so eventually a new full sized lighter weight single decker model was introduced using a new chassis, with some Lion parts and the Light Six engine from the Cub. This was the Cheetah LZ (Lightweight. Z-type engine), which ran from LZ1 to LZ5 as a diesel, or with an 8216A8217 suffix if petrol e. g. LZ2A. (An equivalent goods chassis was the Lynx DZ). The Gnu has already been discussed, and the solitary experimental Panda without the set back axle, and with an underfloor engine does not appear to have been allocated a code. A special for London Transport8217s Green Line fleet, having half cab, but underfloor engine and preselector gearbox and coded TF by LT, was coded FEC by Leyland, though what this stood for is anyone8217s guess. Also for LT, a half cabbed, but rear engined Cub, coded CR by them, was coded REC (Rear Engined Cub) by Leyland. Trolleybus chassis of the 19308217s were the 2-axle TB (Trolley Bus), 3-axle TTB (Three-axle, Trolley Bus), and a single experimental low floored, front entrance 3-axle example was the TTL (Three-axle, Trolleybus, Low). 040416 8211 06:44 According to the scan from the book FEC 8211 Flat Engine Coach 040416 8211 06:44 Peter, the 8216P8217 in PD and PS definitely stood for 8216Post War8217, not 8216Passenger8217. It is believed that Leyland considered that the TD TS series numbering had become somewhat cumbersome (the next numbers would have been TD8 and TS12), and the PD1PS1 models were decidedly different from their predecessors. The pre-war Cub was lettered KP or KPO (oil) or SKPZ (side driving position, not sure about the Z) and the K in these stood for 8216Kingston8217, though the factory was actually the former Sopwith Aircraft premises at nearby Ham. 040416 8211 06:44 Yet again from the scan Z a new 8216Light Six8217 engine. 040416 8211 11:03 The sizeable Leyland Kingston factory was situated near Richmond Road, Ham, and was built by the Ministry of Munitions in 1917. It was taken over by The Sopwith Aviation Company in April 1918 for the production of aircraft for the war effort. When the war ended just seven months later, aircraft orders collapsed, and Sopwith, like many other businesses of the time, was hit by the Excess Profits Tax of 80. Despite diversifying into motorcycles and civil aircraft, Sopwith went into liquidation in 1920, and the Ham premises were sold to Leyland for 227,000. In 1922 Leyland contracted with Leslie Hayward Hounsfield to produce the Trojan lightweight car, and, up to 1928 when the agreement ended, some 11,000 cars and 6,700 vans emerged from the Ham factory. In 1948, the reincarnated Sopwith company, Hawker Aircraft, bought back the Ham factory from Leyland for the sum of 585,000. 050416 8211 06:41 And after leaving the Ham factory, Trojan established themselves in a new factory on the Purley Way, Croydon, building cars, vans and, from 1962 Heinkel bubblecars under the Trojan name. Production ceased later in the 1960s and the Croydon factory was sold in 1970. All of which is way off topic from Leyland codes, but that8217s the joy of this far reaching site 050416 8211 06:42 The website 8216Ian8217s Bus Stop8217 conjectures that the FEC code, used for LPTB8217s TF, stood for quotFloor Engine Compartmentquot. 060416 8211 06:01 I had understood the FEC to be a Leyland designed chassis for London Transport to be 8216comparable8217 to the AEC Q, and hence a forward entrance. I believe all of them had coach bodies, hence a Forward Entrance Coach. The REC was also developed for London Transport, and is usually referred to as a Rear Engined Cub. The two 8216LT specials8217 had similar looking codes for chassis developed at around the same time 8211 the FEC is clearly not a Cub 8211 so maybe the C did not stand for that (especially as the 8216conventional8217 Cub did not have a C in its code) 8211 and was certainly not the same meaning as C in TEC (from a similar time period). As FEC and REC do not fit the 8216standard8217 pattern that John has detailed above, I just wonder if they might refer to Front Engined and Rear Engined 8216specials8217 for LT 8211 and as not all were coaches, might the C refer to chassis 8211 or even Chiswick. No 8216evidence8217 for the suggestion, just looking at what is, otherwise, a fairly logical system. 060416 8211 06:01 Two other Leyland trolleybus codes were TB4 (Hull nos 1-26) and TB7 (Hull nos 47-66). the original tender document for nos 1-26 from Leyland quoted TD4 but this was subsequently changed to TB4. Newcastle Fleet Numbers Does anyone know what the fleet numbers were that was allocated to the prewar bus bodies that were given new chassis in 1945 or 1946 for Newcastle Corporation Transport. 280316 8211 17:29 Newcastle fitted pre-war bodies to five Daimler new CWA6 chassis in 1945-7, giving them panel numbers 1-5, registered JVK 421-5. Oddly the batch came into service out of order over that three-year period. NovOctDec 1945: 1 and 2, with MCCW bodies from 153 and 155 (1932 AEC Regent I, reg. VK 76913) and 5, with Park Royal body from 142 (1931 Dr CH6, reg. VK 4086). Mar 1946: 4, Park Royal body from 144 (1931 Daimler CH6, reg. VK 4088) Mar 1947: 3, Park Royal body from 137 (1931 Daimler CH6, reg. VK 4081) All five were then taken out of service by Oct 1949, the old bodies scrapped and new ones fitted by Mann Egerton during Oct-Dec 1950. Some body shuffling also took place in 1945-7 either to keep some of the pre-war donor chassis in service for a little while longer or to sell them off as complete vehicles. Did you need that detail as well The information comes from PSV Circle Fleet History PA16 or official records where the latter differ. Some spin-off questions, hopefully to be answered by somebody out there 1. Why the protracted period for fitting the second-hand bodies 2. Why were Mann Egerton chosen to supply the new bodies in 1950 3. Why did other new vehicles delivered to Newcastle in 1945 take numbers from 13 onwards (13-8, JVK 613-8, more Dr CWA6s but with Massey bodies 19-26 followed on in 1946), leaving a numbering gap of 6-12, only filled partially in 1949 by low-bridge Ld PD2s nos. 6-11, LVK 6-11 4. Has anybody got a photo of no. 1 with its second-hand body Here are pics of no 3 with its original and new bodies. The latter comes from Ian Findlays collection. Bus Lists on the Web has some vehicles bought new by Lees, Worksop between 1947 8211 1958 one bought new by Lees Motorways, Worksop in 1959 others bought new by Lees, Nottingham between 1961 8211 1965. Can anyone please tell me if these three are incarnations of the same operator Was Lees, at some stage, swallowed up by East Midland MS 270316 8211 16:40 I am now informed that Lees passed not to EMMS but to Barton. As is often the case with our shared interest this partial answer leads to more questions. Ian Allan British Bus Fleets 5-East Midlands book of 1965 tells that Barton absorbed 43 smaller operators over the years. My new questions are - a) does anyone have a list of those take-overs and b) what vehicles passed from Lees to Barton I am confident that the OBP 8216Eggheads8217 will be able to supply answers. 280316 8211 11:16 Barton history Part 2 (1960-85) by PSVC gives: F. L. Lees of Worksop, first vehicle c 1943. To Lees Motorways (Worksop) Ltd by 1956 but probably much earlier. To Lees Motorways Ltd by 1960, moved to Beeston c1964. Some 95 vehicles are recorded over 30 years of operation. Barton acquired the business in February 1974 and following on from grant-style coaches 1205-1445 were five AEC Reliances taken over from the Lees fleet: 1446 (MYJ 764) new to Dickson (Dundee) via WA 1447 (589 EYU) new to Global (London) 1448 (KWB 520D) new to Littlewood (Sheffield) 1449 (MRO 138D) new to Frame8217s (London) 1450 (KDU 239D) new to Supreme (Coventry) The first two were withdrawn in 1974, the rest in 1975. All were Plaxton bodied except 1447 which was Duple Northern. 280316 8211 13:35 Many thanks to Dave Farrier for that response. I have so far been unable to obtain a copy of the PSVC work referred to. What a shame that these works of reference are allowed to fade away when sold out. Does the book itemise all the take-overs Princess Mary Coaches I am attempting to find details and pictures of the fleet of coaches operated from the 50s to the early 80s Wiltshire8217s Coaches, trading as 8216Princess Mary Coaches8217 from Soundwell, Bristol. Despite my best efforts, I can find little detail on this fleet from my childhood. There are a couple of pictures out there of their well known and preserved VAM and their Duple Bella Vista VAS which survived well. However, the rest of the fleet over its history is a blank. No apparent fleet list and certainly little photographic reference. 240216 8211 16:53 8216Bus Lists On The Web8217 lists a total of twenty vehicles delivered new to Wiltshire of Staple Hill, S G Wiltshire of Staple Hill, D W Wiltshire of Staple Hill, or Princess Mary of Bristol. The eight listed as new to Princess Mary are concentrated in the period 1954-65, so that may indicate a temporary change to limited company status. Soundwell is not mentioned, but I appreciate that it may be a more precise description to Staple Hill of the operator8217s location. Of the eight given as new to Princess Mary, the first six were registered in Bristol (all others up to LVLO days were registered in Gloucestershire, but Soundwell does appear to be just outside the Bristol City boundary). As always, dates of entry into service should be treated with caution 8211 one particular vehicle, given as new in 350, carried a registration which was ostensibly not issued until at least 752. P. S. Are you the Dave Wallington who is active in bus modelling 250216 8211 09:11 For such a well-respected operator, Princess Mary coaches do seem to have been a little camera-shy. HAD 915D and EDD 685C are well-represented on the web of course (in preservation and in service with subsequent operators) 8211 the latter is an SB rather than a VAS. A few other ex-Princess Mary coaches can also be found in use with later owners, but here8217s a shot of Regal III LAD 511 early in its Princess Mary days. na3t. orgroadphoto 250216 8211 16:33 AD and AD were Gloucester registration marks. 250216 8211 16:35 A great big thank you David Call. It is a great step forward for me. Like you, I find it surprising for such a well respected operator in (well almost in) a major city to have such camera shy vehicles. Yes, I am 8216that8217 David Wallington and have decided that I will endeavour to model as much as possible of this fleet. Danke nochmal. Northern General Guy Arab 1133 I am a complete outsider, but entered the site and found it wonderful. My comments and queries probably should find their way to Ronnie Hoye. I was born and lived in Beamish. During the 1950s our local (NGT) services were the 4,5 and 15 which ran past our door every 15 minutes (can you believe it) using fleet 1791-1824, AEC RelianceBurlinghams, while nearby was the No 7 Grange Villa to Newcastle, Worswick St using 1953 Tiger Cubs. But my question is this. During the early 60s my friend and I used to intentionally 8216miss8217 our scholars bus so that on Fridays we could catch a duplicate service on which a Guy Arab NGT 1133 would be used. We were thrilled riding on this bus: the narrow stair, the seating, the poles, the way the clippie rapped on the glass with a coin, but above all the sound from the engine. What was this Now half a century later I want to know. What made my pal and I yearn to board this ancient Guy Arab. What made that sweet, almost 8216sewing-machine8217 like sound as the bus gathered speed. Will I, can I ever hear that sound again (Bus was registration GUP or something) Hope someone can help 250216 8211 10:31 Sorry David, my area was north of the Tyne, Tynemouth amp Wakefileds and Tyneside. Percy Main only had a hand full 8216all AEC8217 and Tyneside didn8217t have any, so single deckers were few and far between, so this will have to be a best guess on my part. However, your description seem to fit the B38F Brush bodied GUY Arab III powered by a Gardner 5LW. Northern had quite a number, I cant be specific, but as far as I8217m aware, the GUP batch were from 1947, and the fleet numbers were at the cross over from 1000 to 1100. I know there were some with LPT registrations, and they were all in the 14008217s. During the summer months the odd one would be on loan to Percy Main, but apart from Newcastle Worswick Street, and Marlborough Crescent, they seldom ventured north of the Tyne. 250216 8211 16:28 250216 8211 16:29 Sorry, Dave, assuming all other details are correct you must have remembered the fleet number wrongly. Northern8217s GUP-registered Guy Arab saloons were 1068-1116 (GUP 68-116). 1117-52 were AEC Regals (not GUP-registered). 260216 8211 09:05 Thanks gents for the comments. I have since purchased 8216Northern General8217 Glory Days and find that GUP 76, fleet 1076 shown on page 58 comes closest to what I remember, though the livery was all red by the early 60s. But can anyone of you mechanically minded chaps tell me why that 5L power unit sounded so distinct, and whining or was it just the steep hills of County Durham The electrics perhaps 260216 8211 14:28 David: whereas inline 6-cylinder engines can be made vibration-free using crankshaft counterweights, the only way to eliminate vibration from an inline 5 is to use balance shafts, as in the modern Scania engine. The Gardner 5LW has no such shafts and therefore, superbly designed and built though it was, it does vibrate. This vibration, together with the fact that a 5-pot gives only five power strokes per two revolutions of the crankshaft rather than six, gives rise to that grunting, lumpy, no-nonsense sound so characteristic of the 5LW. With the gearbox remotely mounted halfway down the chassis, the clutch is not enclosed by a bell housing and so is exposed to the air, which causes the whistling sound. Guy Arab III gearboxes are more subdued than those of the later Arab IV models, so if 11338217s whined really loudly I wonder whether it could have had its gb replaced by one from an Arab IV On the Old Bus Sounds page of this excellent site (drop down from More Pages on the green bar above) are some very musical Arab IV clips. (The Birmingham example is different, having an epicyclic gearbox.) A longish YouTube clip of a preserved Exeter Arab IV show off the traditional gearbox to best advantage. 260216 8211 14:29 David, Gardner engines have a longer stroke than an AEC or Leyland, and are slow revving, usually flat out at around 17 to 1800 RPM, my car ticks over at 1,000, added to which they were usually a slow change giving them a very distinctive sound. Leylands can best be described as plodders, whereas an AEC has a whine when wound up, so although the basic principle is the same, they are all different. 260216 8211 16:55 I think that the most distinctive postwar engines were to be found in the Leyland PDPS8217s, which used to 8216hunt8217 at tickover, running through all the cylinders quickly, then pausing. This is so obvious with the West Riding PS212A in Old Bus Sounds. I imagine that the flywheel kept the engine revs constant which did not affect manoeuvring at tickovernear tickover revs. I can8217t recall any other contemporary engines doing this. 030316 8211 06:03 And here8217s one of the later batch mentioned by Ronnie Hoye. I went up to Harper of Heath Hayes in about 1967 with pal Stuart Wyss, who took the photos, to try out this ex NG-Guy Arab III, with a view (ostensibly) to getting it as an extra vehicle for student use at a college in Reading, but to be honest my real motive was to see and hear this unusual machine close up. Harpers were very trusting and said quotTake her for a runquot without even coming along to make sure we brought the bus back. I knew beforehand that with only a 4-speed gearbox and 5LW engine sparkling performance was not to be expected, but what came as a shock was the very cramped cab, which is how they squeezed in 38 seats It was all a bit battered and tired, so I didn8217t pursue it. Pity Nottingham8217s re-bodied Fleetlines As many of you will known Nottingham City Transport had four of their 1963 batch of Daimler Fleetlines re-bodied by NCME to the Nottingham Standard design in 19756. The four buses in question were 757, 823 (757, 823 RTO). I believe that 82 may have been involved in a bridge collision within a couple of weeks of entering service following re-bodying. Can anybody shed any light on this 240216 8211 05:45 Andy 8211 according to the Circle fleet history on NCT, the accident happened in October 1980, 82 had been rebodied in December 1975.It was repaired by using the roof and upper deck windows of 127 (MTO 127F). From memory, the low bridge involved was on Meadow Lane (probably the one which meant route 8 was always single deck operated). 250216 8211 05:42 Bob, thanks for the information. The Meadow Lane bridge claimed a few casualties in its time. Wasn8217t AEC Renown 390 withdrawn following a collision with this bridge. If so it was somewhat ironic that a bus based on a low height chassis was de-roofed because it was fitted with a full height body In 1913 Sheffield bought their fist buses. They were Daimlers, but really were badge engineered AECs. They bought some Daimlers in the late 40s. These had NCB bodywork. As they also had Regent IIIs at the same period, were they real or badge engineered 210216 8211 09:40 Daimler did produce Gardner engined diesel buses before the second world war, but during the war started to produce a wartime bus - the CW, with AEC or 5 or 6 cylinder Gardner engines - CWA or CWG: I dont think these had any connection with AEC apart from the engine. Daimler produced its own diesel engine towards the end of the war and a few found their way into CWs, the great example being the Northampton preserved CWD which even has a sound clip here with that beautiful, refined sound. These found their way to many municipalities not used to Daimlers - Im not sure if Sheffield had any previously: much later it had many Fleetlines, but never, like its municipal neighbours, CVGs After the war, Daimler produced the CV (not vehicle - victory) of which many were built: Daimler or Gardner engines, 5 or 6, were also available, but not, I think, AEC. When the lovely, smelly, hot Daimler diesel ceased, the CV designation continued until the end of half-cabs, with Gardner engines. I think the AEC connection came from cross-hiring engineers or, like Bristol, sourcing wartime engines Who knows better 210216 8211 09:58 There was no connection between AEC and Daimler after 1926 and until the BLMC link up. AEC used Daimler Pre-select transmission until they licensed it to make their own. The NCB Daimlers were CVD, the only post-war Daimlers until 951-953 in 1962 (followed by hoards in 1964 and 1965). The recent NCB book makes an interesting point which supports theories on distress purchase. AEC, in the post-war rush for new vehicles, were unable to supply the required number to STDSJOC. The bodies were already availablebuilt. ACV could supply ten Crossleys and Daimler ten CVD6. This with twenty Regent IIIs constituted the forty NCB bodies. 210216 8211 15:51 The later story of AECDaimler links is covered by the contributors above. Going back to the beginning, the first motor buses in the Sheffield fleet were of the Daimler CC type. The confusion with AEC, though incorrect, is understandable. Frank Searle, the Chief Engineer of the LGOC, was responsible for the remarkable 8216B8217 type which evolved from the pioneer 8216X8217 type. In 1910, Daimler, then mainly a car producing company, was taken over by BSA who sought to establish a firmer foothold in the commercial vehicle manufacturing business. A plan, funded by the BSA group, to set up a competitor to the LGOC in London using Daimler KPL petrol electric buses was drafted, and Searle was invited to become the chairman of the proposed Premier Motorbus Company. When the LGOC board got to hear of this it demanded to know Searle8217s intentions. Searle refused to commit himself and the LGOC association was immediately terminated in May 1911. In the meantime, Percy Frost-Smith, the Engineer of Thomas Tilling and a collaborator in the design of the Stevens petrol electric vehicle, declared that the KPL petrol electric violated his patents, whereupon BSA offered to buy the rights to the Stevens system. As is well known, Tilling took over the Maidstone company and the KPL manufacturing project and the planned Premier Motorbus Company were abandoned. Searle and BSA then brought out a new double deck motor bus called the CC, which, given the history of its designer, bore very close resemblances to the LGOC B type. It was not a badge engineered AEC. The CC was powered by the Daimler four cylinder sleeve valve engine of 5.7 litres developing up to 40 hp, though under the RAC rating it was known as the 821730 hp8217. The CC, said to have been the most refined bus of its time, achieved respectable sales until it was withdrawn from production in 1914. Despite the inauspicious start to the relationship, connections with AEC grew and Daimler became the agent for the sale of surplus B type buses outside the Metropolitan area. Also, AEC built vehicles at Walthamstow using Daimler engines and the Daimler name on the radiator. This agreement finally ceased at the end of 1917. However, in June 1926, the two companies again collaborated in setting up a joint venture called the Associated Daimler Company. The original idea was that chassis built by AEC in its new Southall factory would be fitted with Daimler sleeve valve engines. Sadly, the new Laurence Pomeroy designed 3.57 litre sleeve valve engine proved to be inadequate and unreliable, and AEC continued to offer its own, though rather outdated, 5.1 litre as an option. New ADC models appeared over the next couple of years, but the association between Daimler and AEC had always been a bit rocky, and, in June 1928, the two companies went their separate ways again. Thereafter all AEC and Daimler models were developed entirely independently, though the first preselector gearboxes and fluid flywheels fitted to London8217s buses were of Daimler manufacture, and subsequent production by AEC of these units was achieved under licence from Daimler. Between 1935 and 1939, 92 of Coventry8217s new Daimler buses were fitted with the AEC 7.7 litre engine (originally of indirect injection, but later of the direct injection type) thus making them COA6 models. Again, when wartime Daimler bus production resumed after the devastating Coventry air raids, once the initial Gardner powered batch of 100 had been completed, the AEC 7.7 became the standard engine in the CW chassis to relieve the pressure on Gardner supplies. Some of the above information has been drawn from the writings of Alan Townsin. 210216 8211 15:52 Thanks for that info. My Dad drove both types but I seem to remember the Daimler seemed to have a more refined, quieter engine. I8217m trying to find 1973 bus fare information for Hull, Anybody any idea where to start
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